Evidence of meeting #8 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was agreement.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Marie-Claude Juneau  Director, Access to Information and Privacy, Canada Revenue Agency
Ted Gallivan  Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigating Branch, Canada Revenue Agency
Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Welcome to our meeting here in One Wellington. It's been a long time since I've been in this building. I trust everyone found their way here okay. We have a one-off meeting today.

I would like to welcome to the committee the Honourable Diane Lebouthillier, our new Minister of National Revenue.

Of course, Madam Minister, you're here to discuss with us business arising out of a motion passed by the committee just before the Easter break to discuss the transfer of files from your department to the United States according to the tax agreements and so on that we've signed as countries. I very much look forward to this discussion.

The way we'll proceed, Madam Minister, is that we'll have opening comments from you. We have one hour with you, I believe, as we agreed to, and then we'll hear from the Privacy Commissioner afterwards.

We'll have time, Madam Minister, for about 10 minutes of opening remarks, if that's okay. Feel free to introduce those who are assisting you at the table today. After your remarks, we'll proceed to as many questions as we possibly can.

We thank you for making yourself available, Madam Minister. The floor is yours.

8:45 a.m.

Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine Québec

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier LiberalMinister of National Revenue

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I welcome this chance to address the committee.

I am joined today by senior officials from the Canada Revenue Agency: Ted Gallivan, the Assistant Commissioner of the International, Large Business and Investigations Branch, and Marie-Claude Juneau, the Director of the Access to Information and Privacy Directorate in the Public Affairs Branch.

Mr. Chair, as the world becomes increasingly globalized and cross-border activities become the norm, tax administrations need to work together to ensure that taxpayers pay the right amount of tax to the right jurisdiction. Cooperation with other tax administrations is critical to protecting the integrity of Canada's tax system and revenue base. In fact, Canada is part of one of the world's largest treaty networks, with no less than 92 tax treaties and 22 tax information exchange agreements in force.

In 2010, the U.S. Congress passed the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA. FATCA requires non-U.S. financial institutions to enter into agreement with the Internal Revenue Service, the U.S. tax department better known as the IRS. This act, therefore, requires the reporting of information on accounts held by U.S. residents and U.S. citizens, including U.S. citizens who are residents or citizens of Canada.

If a financial institution, Canadian as far as we are concerned, is not compliant with FATCA, FATCA requires U.S. payers, that is, corporations and other entities that pay amounts such as interest or dividends, making certain payments of U.S.-source income to this financial institution, to withhold tax equal to 30% of the payment.

This 30% FATCA withholding tax can also be levied in respect of a compliant financial institution, on individual account holders that do not provide documents showing that they are U.S. residents or U.S. citizens. In some circumstances, FATCA could even require financial institutions to close the accounts of certain clients.

In February 2014, Canada and the U.S. signed an international intergovernmental agreement, an IGA, under the longstanding Canada-U.S. tax treaty. We should mention that the first fiscal agreement between Canada and the United States dates back to 1942. While our countries have been exchanging tax information without any problems for decades, this 2014 agreement provides for an enhanced exchange of financial information to improve compliance with our respective tax laws.

Less known is that the agreement is reciprocal. So, the IRS is required to provide the CRA with enhanced information on certain accounts of Canadian residents held at U.S. financial institutions. The intergovernmental agreement was signed in February 2014 and legislation to amend the Income Tax Act to reflect the agreement was passed by the Canadian Parliament in 2014.

Canadian financial institutions that comply with the IGA and related Canadian legislation are now exempt from the 30% withholding tax. Further, Canadian financial institutions report to the CRA the financial accounts they maintain for U.S. citizens. We, in turn, securely transmit that information to the IRS.

Concerning privacy, the CRA is committed to administering this agreement, and all of Canada's tax agreements, in good faith. During the drafting process of the agreement with the Americans, the CRA, together with the Department of Finance, took great care to consult with the Office of the Privacy Commissioner (OPC). We received valuable input and adopted our approach accordingly as the negotiations progressed.

The CRA completed a privacy impact assessment in August 2015. The goal of this assessment was to identify, assess, and mitigate privacy risks. We then submitted this assessment to the Office of the Privacy Commissioner for review. These communications with the OPC and the resulting actions were undertaken with the specific intent of protecting taxpayer privacy.

Information can be disclosed only to persons or authorities who assess, collect, administer, or enforce the taxes and tax laws to which the convention applies. This information can be used for income tax purposes only.

The IGA further stipulates that the information exchanged is subject to strict confidentiality and other protections provided for in the convention, including the provisions limiting the use of the information exchanged.

The CRA exchanged information with the IRS on September 30, 2015. This exchange was done while the CRA followed all of the confidentiality protocols of the treaty and the IGA. Just over three months ago, on January 4, 2016, the CRA received the OPC's recommendations pertaining to the agreement.

My officials have provided to the committee both the OPC recommendations and a copy of our response to them for your information. It is important to mention that, following our submission to the OPC, none of their recommendations suggested that we were not to share this information last September. The next annual transfer of records with the IRS is scheduled for September 30, 2016.

I want to reassure Canadians that all tax treaties and exchanges of information are subject to strict confidentiality requirements. Mr. Chair, this is a priority for our government.

These information-sharing agreements are very important because they allow us to better combat tax evasion and tax avoidance. Canadians are telling us that they want us to crack down on tax evasion and tax avoidance, and the government is committed to do so, as I mentioned earlier this week. This sharing of information is critical to allow us to follow through on that commitment to Canadians.

In conclusion, I emphasize that Canada and the international community continue to move ahead towards greater tax transparency. But rest assured that confidentiality of taxpayer information remains a fundamental cornerstone of Canada's tax system.

Thank you for your attention.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you very much, Madam Minister. That was very thorough, very well thought out, and very well articulated.

We now move to questions.

Mr. Lightbound, for seven minutes, please.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

First of all, my thanks to the Minister for joining us today.

I would like to ask you to expand a little on the recommendations you received from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada.

Could you tell us what his recommendations contained in terms of the transfer of documents?

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I am going to ask Ms. Juneau to answer your questions and give some comments on that.

8:55 a.m.

Marie-Claude Juneau Director, Access to Information and Privacy, Canada Revenue Agency

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Mr. Chair, the recommendations we received from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada focus on three areas.

The first recommendation deals with collecting information. It is to make sure that information collection does not go beyond what we need for the management of our program.

The second recommendation deals with the retention period. It is to make sure that data are not retained longer than we need for the management of our program.

The third recommendation is to update our privacy impact assessment. It is to add information about other programs that may use that information.

A final recommendation dealt with the threat and risk assessment. It was to also include a part of that report in our privacy impact assessment report.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

Did exchanging information before obtaining the commissioner’s recommendations have an impact on the document exchange?

8:55 a.m.

Director, Access to Information and Privacy, Canada Revenue Agency

Marie-Claude Juneau

It had no impact on the document exchange. According to the Treasury Board Secretariat’s directive on privacy impact assessment, we have to make sure that the assessment is complete before the transfer takes place.

In our case, we completed the assessment in August 2014 and it was sent to the Privacy Commissioner. I am sorry. I said that it was in September 2014, but it was 2015. The first transfer took place in September 2015.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

My last question deals with the Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act, or FATCA.

Madam Minister, you told us about the reciprocity between the Americans and the Canadians. How many documents do you estimate we could receive from the Americans in this regard? What kind of reciprocity are you talking about? I believe this was one of the matters raised when FATCA was negotiated, because it was not perhaps very reciprocal. I would like to hear your opinion.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Currently, that information cannot be publicly released because it was obtained under a treaty. It is the prerogative of the country sending the information to authorize public release of the information.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Joël Lightbound Liberal Louis-Hébert, QC

Those are all my questions for now, Mr. Chair.

Thank you.

8:55 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Mr. Long is next.

8:55 a.m.

Liberal

Wayne Long Liberal Saint John—Rothesay, NB

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, Minister, for coming today. You gave a great presentation.

My background is business and I come from a sports background, but sharing of information is something I know is of great concern. For example, the Saint John Sea Dogs have a season ticket base, and we always guard that base. It's very sensitive.

Do you not concede that, in the public, there is an air of concern or a perception that the transfers of files are a breach? I live in a world where sometimes perception can be reality. In that world, what steps is the department taking to reassure Canadians that their privacy and security are being protected?

April 14th, 2016 / 9 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

Mr. Long, our government takes the matter of privacy protection very seriously. All the information exchanged with the United States is subject to very strict confidentiality rules. The Canada Revenue Agency makes sure that tax cooperation with its partners is fully consistent with the privacy rights in effect in Canada. Information exchange is done electronically, through a dedicated, secure and effective transmission system.

All information that the IRS receives must be kept secret in the same way as information obtained under its own tax laws. All information can only be released to individuals and authorities in the American tax administration and can only be used for tax purposes.

Protecting the confidentiality of all transmissions is a major requirement for the agency. Protecting privacy really is a priority for the agency and for our government.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Go ahead, Mr. Bratina.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Is the information we share the information we fill out in our tax forms? Is that the CRA information? What is the specific information and where is it gathered?

9 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I will let Mr. Gallivan answer that question.

9 a.m.

Ted Gallivan Assistant Commissioner, International, Large Business and Investigating Branch, Canada Revenue Agency

No, this is information held by financial institutions. The type of information that would be collected would be the name, the bank account number, the address, and information related to income deposits.

That's information the financial institution collects from their American clients and transmits to the CRA. The CRA then transmits it to the IRS. I would describe it as financial information related to the bank accounts.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Bratina Liberal Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

We weren't aware of this until recently, but it's been going on for some time, and that's fine. Are the financial institutions aware of the practices of the sharing of information? Was it a surprise to them?

9 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

The financial institutions are aware of this kind of information exchange. I must emphasize that, if the agency had not signed an agreement with FATCA, the information exchange would be done by the banks. The fact that the agency is involved and that agreements have been reached with FATCA, allows us to protect the information even more and to respect confidentiality and privacy.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Blaine Calkins

Thank you very much, Madam Minister.

Those were great questions. We'll now move to our next member of Parliament to ask questions, and that would be Mr. Jeneroux for seven minutes, please.

9 a.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

Thank you for being here, all three of you. It's great of you to take time out of your day to be here with us. Also, thank you for taking the time to debate this motion brought forward by my colleagues on this side of the table, the New Democrats.

In that, I'm hoping I'm not scooping some of their lines of questioning. Perhaps I shouldn't care as much, but we'll go along this side of the table together, I guess.

I have a quote here from the member from Nova Scotia for Sackville—Preston—Chezzetcook, and he says:

We also have concerns that the agreement reached with the U.S. may not stand up to a Constitutional challenge given that it forces the banks to treat clients differently based on their national origin, something forbidden by Section 15 of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

I'm hoping you might be able to comment on that, elaborate on that, seeing that it's a member of your own caucus.

9 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

I must tell you that, clearly, we would have done things differently from the previous government when the time came to get the approval of Parliament. We would not have rushed the agreement into effect by hiding it in an omnibus bill more than 400 pages long. We would have taken the time to explain clearly to Canadians and to Parliament why the agreement was being adopted. We would have taken the time to discuss it in a much more open and transparent manner in order to provide parliamentarians and Canadians with all the information, as is right and proper.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

Matt Jeneroux Conservative Edmonton Riverbend, AB

I appreciate that explanation, Minister; however, those are views of a member of your own caucus. I'm curious as to how your being open and honest with Canadians, as you expressed, still doesn't address his concerns over whether it stands up to a constitutional challenge. Would you care to comment?

9:05 a.m.

Liberal

Diane Lebouthillier Liberal Gaspésie—Les-Îles-de-la-Madeleine, QC

After we had obtained all the information about FATCA, we clearly would still have entered into agreements with the United States. FATCA is an American act. The position that was taken at the time really allowed the Canadian banking system, and Canadians with dual citizenship, to be protected.