Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 4th, 2020

[Michelle Kovacevic]

What is the exact question? Pardon me.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Don't you think that if you had double-checked on Imagine Canada and the fact that they walked out on this, it would have raised alarm bells? The Kielburgers, having fired all their staff in March, were not capable of taking 10,000 of the cohort. They didn't have the partners to do it. They couldn't do it in Quebec and they couldn't do it with francophones.

If you had done more due diligence, maybe those issues would have been raised and you would not be speaking to our committee right now.

[Michelle Kovacevic]

Thanks for that.

That may well be the case, sir. I think that question is probably directed at ESDC, who were the ones building the contribution agreement with WE Charity. That was not the Department of Finance.

I would also state that in your earlier chronology, yet again, Minister Morneau did not approve the $12 million for WE. I was never aware of correspondence between Mr. Kielburger and Minister Morneau until August, when email records were made public.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

But it's in annex 4. It says the minister has approved $12 million to Employment and Social Development Canada. That's April 21. It's in the finance minister's documents that he approved.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That's all the time we have.

Colleagues, I have two more people on the speakers list: Monsieur Gourde, who hasn't had a chance to ask any questions, and Madame Shanahan. Do both of you want to ask questions?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

If possible, yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Is there consent by the committee to go over time to do that?

I see consent.

We'll go to Monsieur Gourde first for five minutes, and then to Madame Shanahan for five minutes.

Monsieur Gourde, go ahead.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Ms. Fox.

The Clerk of the Privy Council already told us, in August, that a meeting was held with many stakeholders, and many ideas were exchanged there on this student grant.

Did you participate in that brainstorming session, Ms. Fox?

[Christiane Fox]

No, I did not participate in that meeting.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Okay.

The Clerk of the Privy Council also told us that the Kielburgers or other representatives of WE Charity participated in that meeting. They were invited by the Privy Council and by certain departments because of their expertise.

Did you know they had participated in that meeting?

[Christiane Fox]

Are you asking whether I knew the Kielburgers participated in a meeting with the Privy Council this year?

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Yes. We were told that the Kielburgers or other representatives of WE Charity participated in that brainstorming meeting to share their ideas before the program was even launched.

[Christiane Fox]

No, I'm not aware of that meeting, and I did not participate in it.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Okay.

Ms. Fox, based on your experience and your knowledge of the organization, do you think WE Charity had the capacity to fully implement this $900-million program?

[Christiane Fox]

I have not reviewed their proposal in detail. I received an initial version of it and read the document, but I did not go into the details.

What I can share is the advice I gave the Prime Minister. I know that it was a matter of figuring out whether the department should have done the work or whether that organization was best suited to do it. In my experience, among our biggest challenges were building the program and recruiting participants. It took us a lot of time to get to about 1,800 pilot projects. So my advice was based on that experience. I mentioned that it was a challenge to recruit students or young participants to immerse themselves in a long-term service program.

So what I advised the Prime Minister was that the organization in question should have national level activities, an active digital platform and already well established experience in youth engagement. Since too short of a timeline did not allow us to start the work from scratch, we really had to have an organization that was already in place and had experience in youth engagement.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

So, Ms. Fox, when the Prime Minister said to the media that he received advice from senior officials before selecting WE Charity to implement the program, that advice must not have come from you, as you seem to be saying that the organization had shortcomings in that respect.

[Christiane Fox]

No, I did not say that it had shortcomings. I said that we needed a national program with youth engagement and digital platforms. That is what I advised the Prime Minister. He also received advice from other senior officials. That said, my advice was really based on my experience related to the Canada Service Corps program. I noted that a national organization such as WE Charity was an option to consider going forward. That was really based on my experience, and not on any details of WE Charity's proposal.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Thank you, Ms. Fox. So that was an option, and not necessarily your decision.

My last question is for Ms. Kovacevic.

Do you know whether WE Charity received money at the outset to at least launch the program's administrative component?

[Michelle Kovacevic]

I am aware of it now, but those are details that are uniquely in the remit of ESDC. That has nothing to do with me.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Do you know how much money it was?

[Michelle Kovacevic]

I cannot speculate, nor remember. You'd have to ask ESDC.

[Jacques Gourde, Conservative, Lévis—Lotbinière, QC]

Okay.

Thank you very much.

I'm finished, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much, Monsieur Gourde.

Now we go to Madame Shanahan for five minutes.

[Brenda Shanahan, Liberal, Châteauguay—Lacolle, QC]

Thank you very much, Chair.

Before I ask the witnesses my questions, I just want to correct the record regarding the Treasury Board approval.

We had testimony at OGGO, the government operations committee, from Kathleen Owens, the assistant comptroller general, who said:

In the case of the WE contribution, ESDC officials did consult TBS to determine whether the Canada student grant program could be delivered under the minister's existing authorities, or whether a Treasury Board authority were required. In this case, we determined that it was under the minister's authority; therefore, the program and the contribution agreement never came to the Treasury Board. The Treasury Board had no role, but as the minister indicated, under the transfer of payment policy, it's the responsibility of the deputy head of the department to make sure that all official languages provisions of the act are being respected.

I hope that clarifies. There may have been some misunderstanding before regarding TBS's role.

My question is for Ms. Kovacevic. I'd like to give her the chance to clarify her remarks or give an explanation of this $10-million approval, how that happened and how that went down.

[Michelle Kovacevic]

I'm sorry, what $10-million approval?