Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 4th, 2020

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thanks to the witnesses as well.

Now we'll move on to Mr. Angus for six minutes.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming this afternoon.

Frank, I'm very sorry to hear about your father. You know, we really miss you on this committee. We had to find a reason to bring you back. Welcome back to the committee that you served so well.

I am very interested in the issue of the ventilators. I remember the crisis in March and the panic and the need to get funding out the door on these issues, particularly on ventilators. But we aren't the health committee. We're here at ethics. The issue with ethics comes down to making sure that we follow the rules.

In 2008, Rahim Jaffer, who was a former member of Parliament, a public office holder, returned to try to get a deal with the government he had served. He was convicted for breaking the Lobbying Act. Mr. Bruce Carson was a former public office holder. He was charged and convicted for coming back to the government he served. They were offering good ideas. Mr. Jaffer's was green energy. Mr. Carson's was clean water for first nations.

When your name came up, obviously, it raised questions.

Mr. Baylis, did you contact the Ethics Commissioner when you got involved in this? What did he say?

[Frank Baylis]

Thank you for your kind words, Charlie, about my father.

If you're missing me another time in ethics, just give me a call, please. I'm happy to speak to you other than being summoned here.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Okay.

[Frank Baylis]

No, I did not contact Mr. Dion. I think that he's a very competent man. He knows the rules. I have been watching this. Obviously, my name has come up. I am aware, as Mr. Fergus pointed out and as the rules state very clearly, that his job is to monitor the works of sitting members of Parliament. His job is not to provide advice—nor is there any opportunity to provide advice—for non-sitting members of Parliament.

Having said that, let me answer your question a different way.

The world was going through a horrendous situation. We saw doctors crying that people were dying because they didn't have enough ventilators. That was—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Sorry, Frank, I don't have a lot of time here.

[Frank Baylis]

Let me just finish.

It's an ethical question. My point is—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

I get that.

My question is, did you talk to the Ethics Commissioner or not?

[Frank Baylis]

My point is that this is about the ethics, Charlie, if I could, please.

When Mr. Jamieson called us up and asked if we would help them, my answer then, ethically, was yes. Absolutely. I didn't need to ask the Ethics Commissioner to vet that question.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

No, I totally understand, Mr. Baylis.

Your other former colleague, Jane Philpott, whom I have enormous respect for, went to work up in my region when she finished parliamentary life. I think some of your Liberal colleagues made a complaint to Mr. Dion and she wasn't allowed to work with some of the most impoverished first nation communities. Your Liberal colleagues had said that under the rules, she couldn't do that as a former office holder.

I'm just trying to get a sense of how this came down. I was surprised that Minister Anand said she had never heard of you. She said she couldn't pick you out of a crowd. Personally, I thought she was selling you very short. You were very popular in Parliament. You were very well known.

I ask that because when the documents about this contract came out, it wasn't like you were treated as a subcontractor. Baylis Medical was named in all the press releases. It was right up front.

Do you see why these questions need to be asked? It's so we can reassure the public that the contracts that are awarded meet all the ethical standards, so there aren't favours being given to people who are former office holders.

[Frank Baylis]

I believe it is the job of the opposition to be vigilant and to monitor these works. This COVID crisis has seen an explosion of expenses and I don't think there's anything wrong with the ethics committee or any other committee investigating things that might have come up.

I'll be honest; it had hit me personally to see my name, these falsehoods being stated and lines being drawn that were not true. Some people were mocking me in the House of Commons. Of course, I'm a human being and I didn't appreciate that, but I tried to stay above and away from it. I have great respect for the whole process and the people involved, so I don't see that there's anything wrong with asking questions.

I do think there is something wrong with casting aspersions, and I think that you have here the people who did it. Really, it would be wrong even to take any credit. It's really Mr. Jamieson who did all this work, and then Mr. Godara, who worked together. Under his guidance and the guidance of Mr. Jamieson—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Fair enough.

I have a very short question. You said you weren't involved in any of the negotiations with government, which I think would have been—

[Frank Baylis]

I'll clarify that. I was on one call—

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Yes, that one call.... Could you just clarify that for me? That's all I'd need to know. Thank you.

[Frank Baylis]

When the crisis hit, my partner and I took a decision. We said we don't want to lay anybody off, but we have 750 people—we have an enormous payroll—so we started taking a lot of actions. Well, there were two people who got laid off. My partner and I actually took our salaries to zero.

We cut expenses such as travel. That turned out to be a moot point because travel was cut for all kinds of reasons anyway. We said no more travel; we used to pay for people to take courses, so we cut courses; we cut matching your RRSPs, so we would say we could keep everybody. We then remortgaged all our buildings, extended our line of credit and put a pile of money to say we're going to get through this thing together, as a team.

Then Mr. Jamieson said that we had to start buying parts in the United States. I said we had some money but we could not risk our company. That money was there to get us through this COVID crisis. We needed an advance. If you want us to go out and start doing all this work, buying the parts.... The parts were going like hotcakes and the prices were exploding. It was a crazy time. We could not use that money, so we needed an advancement—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Baylis, I'm sorry to interrupt you.

[Frank Baylis]

I'm sorry.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

I thought that was an important question and I tried to give you some extra time, but we're almost a full minute over. Maybe you can complete that answer in another round.

[Frank Baylis]

Thank you, Chair.

It's just that Mr. Jamieson asked me to get on the phone. He set up the call. I don't know who was on the call. He said, “Explain to them why you need this advancement.” That's it. Mr. Godara calculated how much we needed.

[Charlie Angus, NDP, Timmins—James Bay, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you very much.

Before we go to the next round—and it will be Mr. Barrett who will begin the next round—I wanted to clear something up, both for the witnesses' reputations and for the committee's.

Mr. Baylis, I'm certain you used the word innocently, but you were invited to the committee. You weren't summoned or subpoenaed—

[Frank Baylis]

I apologize.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

—because we have that capability, and I want to make sure everybody knows that you came willingly. We invited you and you accepted that invitation.

I thought that would be clearer for everyone.

We will now move on to Mr. Barrett for five minutes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Thanks very much, Chair.

Mr. Baylis and Mr. Jamieson, thanks for joining us today.

My first question is for Mr. Jamieson. Why did you create FTI on the day that the tender was due?