Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 4th, 2020

[Greg Fergus, Liberal, Hull—Aylmer, QC]

Thank you to all the witnesses.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Fergus.

Thank you, Mr. Jamieson and Mr. Baylis.

Now we'll move on to Madame Gaudreau.

You have six minutes.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Good afternoon. I'm very pleased to be meeting with you today.

I have one very simple question, but also some questions that will require you to explain things a little further. The first question is for Mr. Jamieson.

In your remarks, you said that you contacted the public service. I didn't hear the name of the person whom you contacted when you suddenly wanted to save people. We can understand that your goal is very commendable. That said, whom did you contact?

[Rick Jamieson]

Are you asking me if I'm a lobbyist? Is that the question? No, I'm not a lobbyist. I'm an auto parts manufacturer. This is the first time I've ever been involved in a government contract. Simply, our theory was that we had three—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I can't hear the interpretation.

[Rick Jamieson]

Oh. I'm sorry.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I understand English to some extent. However, I've noticed that I'm not getting the interpretation.

[Rick Jamieson]

My apologies.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

You didn't change the button on your screen, did you, Mr. Jamieson?

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

The question is quite simple. You said that you contacted the public service. That's what I heard in the interpretation. Whom did you contact?

[Rick Jamieson]

Absolutely. Like I said, I'm not a lobbyist. I wouldn't even know the first thing about being a lobbyist. That's something that happens in Ottawa. It doesn't happen in Guelph. Lobbying the mayor is asking to get your road fixed.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I understand.

[Rick Jamieson]

We were in full compliance with the procurement process. I reached out to the government in order to explain what Ventilators for Canadians was doing. We were trying to build a licensed ventilator. That's why I told you, in the opening statement, that what we did was—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Okay, but whom did you contact?

[Rick Jamieson]

I'm not sure I'm supposed to mention actual civil servants' names. I don't think that's fair.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'll ask you the question later.

[Rick Jamieson]

I don't know what the rules are.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I'll tell you what I'm getting at.

I completely understand that, when you're in business, you may really want to save the world, but you also want to do business.

The issue is that you did business with Mr. Baylis, who, with all due respect, knew the lobbying rules. After a term as a member of Parliament, you can't lobby the government for five years, if you want to be as neutral and transparent as possible. In this type of situation, you must be as pure as the driven snow.

Technically, when I look at the documents, I don't see any reports in the past 12 months. That's why I want to know whom you spoke to in the public service.

[Rick Jamieson]

Okay. I'm happy to answer that in a different way.

I can tell you that I contacted the public service before I met Mr. Baylis, or before I even met Baylis Medical. That's the best answer. We were reaching out to the government, because we thought we were going to crowdsource these ventilators and give them to Canadians. What happened was that I got some advice from a retired partner of one of the big accounting firms, who said, “This is government's responsibility. If you crowdsource and it doesn't work out for you, people who have given you money won't be very happy.”

So we changed directions. That's how it happened.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

You know that you can identify the official to whom you spoke, right? Many names have been provided to this committee. Like you, we want to make sure that taxpayers' money is being well spent.

So whom did you talk to?

[Rick Jamieson]

I actually spoke to a gentleman named Charles Vincent. I can even tell you how I found Mr. Vincent. Essentially, I knew one single politician who I thought might be able to get me to Ottawa. I called the Mayor of Stratford, Dan Mathieson, whom I personally know. I asked him if he knew anybody. He said he would call Ottawa and see if he could get someone to talk to me. I said I'd be at my desk until 11 o'clock at night for the next three nights. Mr. Charles Vincent called me back at 11:30 at night and we talked until 1:30 in the morning. I explained to him what I was trying to do.

The problem for me was that I felt if we could raise a lot of money from the public.... I called specifically to ask the government the ethics question—we're at an ethics committee—of how it would look if private donors in Toronto who were willing to give me millions of dollars wanted those ventilators to go to Toronto hospitals. The problem was that we were Ventilators for Canadians. We wanted to ask a senior civil servant how we might do that. When he found out what we were doing—

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

That's perfectly legitimate.

I know that time is running out. I have one last question.

You did business with Mr. Baylis. Given his years of service and his recently completed term, he knew how things worked. Did he tell you about everything?

I'm a new member of Parliament. Let me tell you, there are so many rules to follow that, before making any move, we check as many things as possible.

I want to ask you the following question, Mr. Baylis. Did you warn Mr. Jamieson that rules were in place, including the rules in the Lobbying Act, to ensure full compliance?

[Frank Baylis]

I wasn't involved in all the work that Mr. Jamieson had done. I spoke to him to determine whether, as a manufacturer, he met the ISO 13485 standards and had already obtained all the necessary approvals from Health Canada. I wasn't personally involved. I didn't know whom he was speaking with.

Ms. Gaudreau, at the time, I don't think he even knew that I had been a member of Parliament. That isn't why he called me. He found out that I had been a member of Parliament only when the media reports came out. That's how events unfolded.

[Marie-Hélène Gaudreau, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I know that, when I'm no longer a member of Parliament—of course, this will happen to us all one day—I'll be careful when conducting business over the next five years. I'll make sure that I know whom I'm speaking with. However, in this case, we're not talking about hundreds of dollars in business dealings. We're talking about thousands, or even millions of dollars. That's why I, on behalf of my constituents, have trouble understanding what happened. I believe you, but please explain it to me.

Do I have any time left, Mr. Chair? I don't think so.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

That's all the time we have.

Thank you, Ms. Gaudreau.