Information & Ethics Committee on April 16th, 2024

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Good morning, everyone. I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 112 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 81(4), the committee is commencing consideration of the main estimates 2024-25: vote 1 under Office of the Commissioner of Lobbying; vote 1 under Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner; vote 1 under Office of the Senate Ethics Officer; and votes 1 and 5 under Offices of the Information and Privacy Commissioners of Canada, referred to the committee on Thursday, February 29, 2024.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders of the House of Commons. Members may attend in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. I would again like to remind all committee members not to put their earpieces close to the microphones, as this can cause feedback and cause hearing injury to the interpreters.

I'd now like to welcome our witnesses for the first hour today. From the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner, once again we have Mr. Konrad von Finckenstein, who is the commissioner.

Sir, it's good to see you again. I think I've spent more time with you than with my wife lately.

Melanie Rushworth is the director of communications, outreach and planning, and Sandy Tremblay is the director of corporate management.

Mr. Commissioner, you have up to five minutes to address the committee. Please proceed.

[Konrad von Finckenstein, Commissioner, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen members of the committee, thank you for inviting me to speak with you about the Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner's budgetary submission for 2024-25.

As you will have noticed, I am accompanied today by Ms. Sandy Tremblay, director of corporate management, and Ms. Melanie Rushworth, director of communications.

First of all, I would like to thank you and all your fellow members for voting in favour of my permanent appointment. I very much appreciate the vote of confidence.

The commissioner's office consists of around 50 professionals who are doing everything possible to ensure that the 3,200 people subject to the Conflict of Interest Act or the Conflict of Interest Code for Members of the House of Commons avoid conflicts of interest.

I see the office as having a twofold purpose: one, to help public officials avoid and manage their conflicts of interest, and two, to facilitate the movement of qualified people in and out of the public service. These principles reflect my approach to the role of commissioner. Ultimately, the goal is to safeguard public confidence in the integrity of elected and appointed officials.

All experienced and competent people will, over time, be exposed to potential conflicts of interest. To me, this means the credibility of the advice and guidance provided needs to be both helpful, innovative and timely. Accordingly, you will see a change in our educational offerings throughout this year.

Reflected in the main estimates request is an alignment of funding to ensure the continued growth of the educational and outreach functions of the office. This will allow us to develop more tailored or subject-specific opportunities to meet the needs of those subject to either regime. These approaches will be online, in person and on demand. In the near future, an online course specifically tailored to meet the needs of elected members under the code will be launched.

Reflecting our efficient approach, the budget for this year reflects an increase of just under 3%, which will be used mainly to offset some cost increases.

Melanie, Sandy and I would be happy to answer any questions you have about our office, our finances or our operations.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Commissioner.

I have a couple of notes. We have a bit of committee business that we will need to discuss at the end. First will be the budget for this particular study—we're going to need approval of that at the end—and second will be some of the recommendations on the data extraction tools report that's coming up. I'll keep a bit of time at the end for that.

We're going to start with our first six-minute round.

Mr. Barrett, you have the floor for six minutes. Go ahead, sir.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Good morning.

Commissioner, how many investigations do you have ongoing today?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

There are two.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

How many investigations are ongoing with respect to Sustainable Development Technology Canada?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

The proposals are with regard to sustainable development.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Are you able to undertake preliminary investigations into other board members at SDTC?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

As you know, we basically act on requests from the public or members. I have the authority to start investigations of my own, but again, all of this has to be done on the basis or credible evidence or suspicion, and I have seen no reason so far to start anything other than the two we have ongoing.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

With respect to the other members of the board and matters of public record, including the committee transcript, are you confident that no reasonable suspicion has been raised that voting members were doing things to materially benefit themselves?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

That's correct. There has been no evidence of any kind, and no suspicions or allegations have been raised with regard to the other members.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

If you were presented with new evidence by a member of Parliament or a member of the public through open source information like media or committee testimony, would you investigate other board members?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

It depends on what the information is, how credible it is, how substantive it is and so on. However, if indeed it meets the threshold for something that needs to be investigated, and if there is sufficient evidence to indicate something that's contrary to the rules, then we would do it.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

In your reviews or briefs of past files, past investigations, has it been the case that in similar circumstances—in this case we're talking about the board of Sustainable Development Technology Canada, where you're investigating two individuals who served on the board—investigations could give rise to further investigations of other members of the board? That's based on your past experience.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Well, my past experience is very short, as you know. I don't know whether my previous—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I mean based on your past experience at the office.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I can just answer that hypothetically, yes, it is possible. I don't know whether it has happened.

Melanie, do you know of any past investigations that have spawned subsequent investigations?

[Melanie Rushworth, Director, Communications, Outreach and Planning, Office of the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner]

There are none coming to mind.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Have you been able to obtain all of the information you've requested—documents, evidence—from the Sustainable Development Technology Canada organization?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Yes.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Then they have been forthcoming.

Are you able to share with us who your point of contact is with SDTC? There have been a number of changes with that organization since your investigation commenced.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

Your are asking me for the details of my investigator. All I know is that we've asked for information. We got all the information. We asked the witnesses to come forward. They came forward. They were put under oath, and they have testified.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

The two—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

If you want to know who does it, who was actually contacted in the organization and who has been responding to us, I can get you the name. I don't have it here.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I'd appreciate that, sir.

Am I correct in inferring from your response that you've interviewed both of the subjects of the two complaints you've received from SDTC and that they have sworn an oath and provided testimony to you?