Information & Ethics Committee on March 10th, 2023

[Gabrielle Lim]

Yes, for sure.

Very briefly, again, I don't want to directly say correlation is causation, but we see this in other communities as well. When there's criticism of Israel, for example, there are reports of increased anti-Semitic attacks. Similarly, over COVID, the coronavirus, there was increased resentment towards Chinese immigrants. Similarly, after 9/11, there was a lot of backlash against people who were perceived brown, not just Arabic. This is the general ballpark we're dealing with.

I think we have to be careful about how we word certain things. I think repeatedly stating, “This is the CCP, the actions of the Chinese Communist Party”, as opposed to writ large Chinese people.... I think—and most of you know this already, so this is old hat—that just being wary of what language we use.... We should be criticizing the CCP and bringing light to everything they're doing, but I would also like to not risk getting spat in my face or called a racial slur on the street. I think that's just my caveat. We just have to be careful about how we frame things.

[Lisa Hepfner, Liberal, Hamilton Mountain, ON]

Would you say that even allegations of foreign influence have an effect on whether a Chinese Canadian would, say, volunteer in a political campaign or work in a political office? Does that affect the way they can fully participate in our democratic process the way they may want to?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Could we have a short answer, please?

[Gabrielle Lim]

Yes, I would say that with the current evidence, no, I can't give you a definitive answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Again, I apologize, Ms. Lim. You always seem to be at the tail-end of the time. I don't like doing this, believe me.

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'll get back to Mr. Kwan.

Mr. Kwan, if you would be so kind as to send us the 2017 report, we would be very grateful.

[Cheuk Kwan]

Yes. It's the court report.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you.

In your opinion, has Chinese interference in Canadian affairs increased since the Liberal Party came to power in 2015?

[Cheuk Kwan]

I don't think I can say anything about that just because, as Ms. Lim said, there is no causation involved in this. I think it was just as strong during the Conservative times of Prime Minister Harper.

However, just because it has increased in the last seven years doesn't mean it was because of the Liberal government.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

It may just be that interference has increased during this period.

[Cheuk Kwan]

Yes, it just happened to coincide.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

What is the advantage to the Chinese regime of trying to destabilize democratic states?

[Cheuk Kwan]

Yes, Beijing has been doing that all over the world, and Canada is no exception.

I point to Australia, our cousin, a country of basically very similar size, population and demographics. China has been working on Australia for many years. Australia stood up, first by having very strong rules about engagement with China's CCP by its elected officials, as well as by enforcing and establishing the foreign agent registry.

Of course, Australia suffered. They had trade sanctions. They have been harassed by China, but I admire their courage in standing up to China.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

I have a few seconds left for one last question.

Do you believe that an independent public inquiry is needed to make the public feel safer?

[Cheuk Kwan]

Yes, I think so. I think a former prime minister of Australia mentioned just a week ago on TV that all you need is sunshine, to shine a light on these things in the public mode. It not only helps us look at these things, but it also tells China that they cannot go under the table anymore. Everything you do is currently exposed to the public, and let the public judge.

[René Villemure, Bloc, Trois-Rivières, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Kwan.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Villemure and Mr. Kwan.

Mr. Green, you have a final intervention for two and a half minutes.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

Ms. Lim, in one of your previous interventions you had started offering some of your additional policy specifics. I want to give you some short time right now just to expand on other things to put on the record that we should be considering.

[Gabrielle Lim]

Yes, for sure.

I think this has probably been touched upon already, but accountability, really calling out officials if needed and necessary, is important. This could be calling in diplomats of the relevant countries; putting out very public statements condemning these kinds of actions; and increasing the evidence, again like Mr. Kwan said, and shedding sunlight on what's happening. I think that's really important.

I think there needs to be a lot more done to support victims and targeted communities. I think the FBI has a hotline, and I think in the U.K. when there were attacks against the Iranian diaspora, law enforcement had offered protection.

There should be digital training, very basic security training, and also training so if there were an agency set up to deal specifically with transnational repression, there would be good training so they understand what's actually happening for the victims.

Also, do not revictimize folks who have already been targeted. For example, you could be targeted as a diaspora community, but that might also put you under more law enforcement surveillance, and that's not necessarily good when they've already had really bad experiences with law enforcement.

It's just being cognizant of all of those things.

I think the last point is engaging with the private sector. We know that a lot of the harassment comes through Twitter, Facebook, Telegram, WeChat and what have you. It's hard because they're for-profit companies and they're often located or headquartered elsewhere, but see how they can play a role in this.

Also—I'm sorry, but I'm just rattling off things—

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

No, this is why we need you on the record.

[Gabrielle Lim]

—exploring targeted sanctions against companies that are exporting or selling technology to countries that use us against individuals.

I will leave it at that.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

I have one final question, because you talk about foreign interference. Many of the examples are from non-western countries interfering in western democracies.

Would you be able to comment on the ways in which western democracies also interfere in foreign elections around the world?

[Gabrielle Lim]

Yes, 100%, this happens all the time. Look at the U.S. and Canada. The United States is our biggest neighbour. They are constantly influencing us, whether or not we like it. That's why we have CanCon laws.

With the trucker convoy you mentioned earlier, there was a lot of influence from the U.S. and even U.S. politicians. There was money being funnelled from the United States. We should also be cognizant of that. It could have been harassment as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We're 30 seconds over, Mr. Green.

[Gabrielle Lim]

I will just say that, yes, it happens between democracies as well.