Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I do have a question, and you've said you don't understand it.

How can you answer it if you don't understand it?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

No, no. I'm just going back to your question. On March 5—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Let me break it down for you.

Annette Verschuren is the chair of the board. You have the power to fire her. We have heard evidence that Ms. Verschuren is in a conflict of interest and that her company has continued to receive funding, including the Verschuren Centre receiving a million dollars on September 5 and $1.2 million on September 19.

Did you offer any comments that were supportive of the funding that the Verschuren Centre, named for the chair of the board who serves at the minister's pleasure.... Did you offer positive comments about that funding, already knowing about the allegations against Ms. Verschuren?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I see where you're trying to make inferences and allegations and all that, sir.

Let me make things very simple for you: I learned on March 5. That's one of the times I was briefed by my officials—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Yes, and that comes before September 5. Yes.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, if you want, I'm happy to answer the question, but if I'm not able to answer I'm not sure in terms of due process—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I was just going to say, let the minister answer here, Mr. Barrett, if you don't mind. Thank you.

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

Let's hear it.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

If you want me to answer, give me the opportunity.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Go ahead, Minister.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

On March 5, this is the time I was briefed by officials. On March 17, the department issued a contract to Raymond Chabot to do the investigation. On September 27, I got their findings. On October 3, that's where we—

[Michael Barrett, Conservative, Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands and Rideau Lakes, ON]

I have 10 seconds left, Minister.

I would just say that you heard about it in March. Then in September you went on to give positive praise for more funding to Ms. Verschuren, who's at the heart of these conflict-of-interest allegations. You have the power to fire the chair. You have the power to fire the board. Why haven't you fired anyone?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would really—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Minister, that concludes this round of questioning.

You went over by about 10 seconds, according to our colleagues in the Liberals.

Ms. Fortier, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Minister, thank you for being here to offer us your observations and to outline your action plan, which is the subject of my first question.

In your opening remarks, you referred to certain measures that you will be taking. Are there any other measures that you would like to tell us about? We know, for instance, that upon seeing the report, you decided to suspend the funding allocated to implement projects. We're trying to understand whether you are implementing other measures now.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Thank you for your question, Ms. Fortier.

That's roughly what I was trying to tell our esteemed colleague Mr. Barrett: the most important decision that was made was to suspend all funding. Let's be clear: under the existing contribution agreement, the minister's rights and obligations are described in the contract. The act also provides a framework. You should also know that this is an independent organization headed up by a president and a board of directors.

I was made aware of these allegations on March 5. A few days later, on March 17, I asked that we engage an accounting firm to shed some light on the situation. Many things were said, and I'm surprised to see that certain individuals felt free to discuss them at length. You also have to consider the procedural issue. We have to watch what we say. We're only talking about allegations, and nothing has been proven for the moment. Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton refers in its report to inconsistencies and opportunities for improvement. That's the basic evidence that's available today.

On the basis of that evidence, we asked that the organization take corrective measures. Various allegations subsequently appeared in the press at different times. Then I said that, if people were in possession of other evidence, we would provide them a forum in the form of an independent law firm charged with gathering their testimony and analyzing the facts, upon which we would be in a position to take appropriate measures.

I am here before you. What I want is to get to the bottom of all this, and I'm prepared to take every necessary measure to do so. Should additional measures be required, we're prepared to take them in the public interest.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

With regard to the press, in recordings made public by CBC/Radio-Canada, officials from your department say how they think you will react to the findings of the Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton report. I'd like to give you an opportunity to explain in your own terms your initial reaction to the report's observations and findings.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I was out of the country when I read the article, but I saw that our officials thought I would react strongly, obviously. After all, they are allegations of mismanagement of public funds and ethical breaches. People know me and know that discipline is part of our approach. I think that what people said was that I would take appropriate measures when I found out what had happened.

Even though we want to get to the bottom of things, you have to do it right. What troubles me somewhat in what I heard is that many people drew hasty conclusions. You have to be careful because both sides have rights and obligations.

What I want is to gather all the evidence. If members of this committee have evidence that I don't, please submit it to us and we'll take the appropriate measures. That's why we're working with a law firm on this matter. That will help us get to the bottom of this matter.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Do I have enough time?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have two minutes.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

That's excellent. Thank you.

I imagine you had conversations with SDTC. Do you know whether it has already agreed to take steps to improve the situation in light of the report? If so, do you think it has made enough of an effort to date to improve the situation?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I want to inform the committee that I haven't been in touch with SDTC for several months, even years. Personally, I haven't spoken to the board chair or the president of the organization. Our officials do that work, and I think that's the correct way to proceed.

We obviously have rights under the contribution agreement. In the spirit of transparency, we asked the organization's officials to open their books and establish a process that would enable their employees to speak freely, and they said yes. We must proceed in that spirit of transparency and good governance, and I hope the committee will meet with SDTC's officers and ask them to do so, but I can tell you that we asked them to do certain things and they agreed. We also asked them to implement an action plan, and they said they would also do that because I think they feel, as Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton indicated in their report, that they can do better in certain areas.

Personally, as a lawyer and minister, I expect the highest standards to be met at any organization that receives public funding, and we made our requests to SDTC in that spirit. Canadians are watching us today, and I'm saying this to everyone: I'm prepared to take all appropriate and necessary measures to get to the bottom of this matter and to ensure that it's done in the spirit of transparency and good governance. I want people to be reassured at the end of this process.

If employees have evidence to bring forward, we will establish a process for them to do so because we have to shed all possible light on this. This is an organization that has been in existence since 2001 and that has helped more than 500 companies across the country. So we must proceed cautiously to preserve what is good and correct what has to be corrected.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister.

Ms. Fortier, I gave you an extra 13 seconds.

[Mona Fortier, Liberal, Ottawa—Vanier, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Villemure, you have the floor for 6 minutes and 10 seconds.