Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to go back to where I was before. Excuse my frustration with regard to it.

We can't control right now what has taken place. We clearly have an agency where you identified that you've cut off their funds. There is a problem. It's supposed to be a very important agency, which has done a lot of good work and so forth, but you've ceased and desisted funding them because there's enough there to merit the actions you've taken.

What bothers me, though, is that what we can control is protecting the workers in this environment. Obviously, if they deviated from the original goals and the types of things they were doing—even from your own remarks coming in—because of our actions in Parliament, we have created a system where these employees are still vulnerable.

I want to ask again, is there not more that you can do for those people who are currently in this environment right now, if they want to get out, to have an equivalent job somewhere else in the public service? We can control that.

After this investigation, they're going to have to live with that environment too. These people, through no fault of their own, were just doing what they were supposed to do. They're funded entirely for their jobs and salaries from the federal government and the public.

Can they not get some type of a better deal—to be complicit in terms of the process of healing the environment—and if they want, get out with equivalencies for them and their families? We can control that. The other stuff we can't control.

It's going to take months and months. That's my appeal.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I feel very strongly for those who came forward.

My answer to that, Mr. Masse, is that I need to see evidence. So far, we don't have evidence. That's why I encourage them—and you have contact with them—to go to a third-party law firm, so that we can hear, in a procedural fairness process, what they have to say. So far, there have been reports in the press—there are things left and right—but we need to have evidence.

My point is that, on the basis of evidence, I can assure you that we'll take all the appropriate steps to make sure these employees are treated as they should be.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

They've presented that, though. There's enough evidence that you've ceased their funding. At the same time, you haven't protected the people who are actually in this environment—their mental health, their families. All of the different repercussions will still exist there, and we have to now depend upon the crutch of a private firm for their future.

I still don't understand why we can't offer them a better deal in terms of helping clean up this mess and protecting them and their families.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Masse—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That would be a better process.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm sorry, sir.

We started at 3:47, which means, in this round, we have two more five-minute rounds to go.

I'm going to go to Mr. Brock and then Mr. Kelloway, and then we'll end this session.

Mr. Brock, you have five minutes, please.

Go ahead.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, I know you started off by briefing us on your legal knowledge and trying to give us some legal parameters.

With respect, we don't want to hear about your legal opinion. We want to hear about your political responsibility, as minister, on this extremely important portfolio. Is that understood?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

As I've said, sir, I do my job. I have a legal background—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you. Do you understand?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

—and I'm very proud of that. I won't excuse myself to say, for the record, that I happen to understand these things, perhaps better than others, because I'm a lawyer, and—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You understood the question, so I'll move on.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

—I used to be managing [Inaudible—Editor]

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, I have limited time. I will move on. Thank you, sir.

You've heard of the concept of ministerial responsibility, haven't you?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'm very familiar. I'm a minister of the Crown.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Yes, so the buck stops with you.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I totally...but I would tell you—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

You keep talking. No, sir. This is my time to talk. I haven't asked you a question.

You say, “Well, that's not my responsibility,” and, “They're going to be doing this review,” or, “They're going to be making those changes, etc.,” but ultimately they report to you, sir. The buck stops with you.

I know there is a pattern in this Liberal government of ministers not accepting responsibility. I hope you're going to buck that trend, actually show real leadership, and actually accept responsibility for this matter, because this matter is, essentially, a year old.

These whistle-blowers come to the Auditor General and complain—not just one whistle-blower but up to 20 whistle-blowers, consisting of employees and senior executives. I know the SDTC likes to classify them as just troublemakers, but they're not. They received advice to prepare a 300-page informational package and send that off to the Privy Council Office. That was done in February.

Now, I understand through your evidence, sir, that you received notice that your department received that report in March, correct? Did you review that report yourself?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, can I answer the question that was 30 seconds long? There was a lot there, by the way. The buck stops with me as minister, but the.... I will advise you—you might not be a lawyer—to read the law that describes the rights and obligations of the minister under the law. I would advise you to read the terms and conditions of the contribution agreement, because—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Believe me, sir. I have.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

—as an arm's-length organization, sir, the minister, by law, is not allowed to manage human resources. That's how the act was created.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm not talking about human resources.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That's how the act was created, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I'm not talking about human resources. I'm talking about the misuse of taxpayers' money to the tune of $150 million.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Provide me with the evidence of that, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Do you want evidence? Take a look. Take a look at the 300—