Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 6th, 2023

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Provide me with the evidence, because the only evidence that exists is in the Raymond Chabot report.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, we speak one at a time. You want evidence.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

If you have evidence, provide it to me.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Hang on, Mr. Brock. Minister, just hang on a second, okay?

Let's have one person speaking at a time here.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Do you want evidence?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I understand it's emotional.

Mr. Brock, you have the floor.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

I suggest, if you want evidence, you actually show some responsibility and read that 300-page report, which lists all of the improper payments that went to companies that did not adhere to the contribution agreement number nine, which you keep referring to, which forms the basis of your legal obligations.

I encourage you to do that, sir, or did you, in fact, just receive a briefing from someone in your department about that 300-page report?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Minister, go ahead.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

With respect, Chair, how can you say that I did not respect the...? Have you done the forensic audit?

There are people who have done the forensic audit. I'm not sure you have done that, but Raymond Chabot did a forensic audit, sir, and that's not the conclusion it reached.

That's what I'm saying. You have to work on the basis of evidence and have due process and procedural fairness—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, may I suggest—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

—because if you're going to say things like that.... I'll tell you something. If you're going to say things like that, you have to make sure that what you are saying is backed by evidence.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Thank you for that advice.

Have you ever contemplated why the Auditor General's Office is actually involved?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Yes. It's because we've been working with the Auditor General's Office.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

The Auditor General's Office is involved because it feels that you didn't do your job.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

That's not at all.... Ask the Auditor General's Office, because we work with the officials and we welcome their investigation, sir.

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

All right. That's exactly what they're saying.

People need to be held accountable. People need to be fired. You've done absolutely nothing despite claiming that you're taking this so seriously. You have the ADM in your own department claiming you were going to freak out, that changes had to be made and that the board had to be replaced.

You did absolutely nothing, sir, between March and October. Did you actually have meetings with your ADM in that time frame, to talk about this issue?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Chair, I work on the basis of evidence. What the member is talking about—

[Larry Brock, Conservative, Brantford—Brant, ON]

Sir, did you have conversations with your ADM?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Brock, your time is up.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would advise you to seek legal advice before you make these allegations, sir, because the only evidence that exists is in the Raymond Chabot report.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Minister.

We're now going to Mr. Kelloway, for five minutes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to talk just a bit about some observations and things that have come to my mind during this committee session.

I've been on the committee for a very short period of time. I'm not a lawyer, but I'm glad to know a lot of people are. You don't have to be a lawyer to understand a couple of things.

My dad was a coal miner. We would sit around and talk politics. We would talk about the issues of the day. Something you said struck me, which my dad used to say: Get to the heart of the issue. Get your facts straight to help people. My dad was in the union. My dad cared about people. My dad cared about helping the people around him in his community. When there was a problem in the mines or things weren't being addressed, he would stand up and say, “Get to the heart of the issue. Get your facts straight. Do the right thing.”

I don't want to take down the temperature a bit, because this is a very serious issue. You have said this. You're the person who ordered the department to go to the Auditor General, if I'm not mistaken.

I want to walk through this for people who are watching at home. When you say “heart of the issue”, can you explain that to me? When you say “do it the right way”, can you explain that to me?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I appreciate that. t was a heated exchange, but I think we're both passionate about getting to the bottom of this. I want to recognize the work of the member, Mr. Brock, and all of our colleagues. We all want to get to the bottom of this.

I must say that from the moment I got any information.... I would really invite colleagues on the Conservative side to, please, have other people come and testify. You'll see that I was the first one to take these allegations seriously and to take action. You should ask around when you have testimony. Ask who took action.

I don't want to come back to my background, Mr. Brock, but I happen to have done that in my professional life. I know one or two things about how to conduct these investigations. The moment we had that, I said, “You're guilty, as much as an act or an omission.” I said the moment you're in possession of any allegations, the moment you have that....

It's because they're allegations. There are reputations on both sides. You need to make sure that allegations are then structured. I said, let's have a forensic audit and not just anyone claiming that there's a breach. You need a forensic audit. There are experts and people who do that for a living. That's why we asked Raymond Chabot to do the forensic audit for us.

When they came with that, Mr. Kelloway, I was not satisfied. I said, “Do you know what? We need more of that.” Therefore, we engaged with the Auditor General, and I'm so pleased that she's decided to do it. We've been welcoming of that. We've even been saying, “Why don't we do it together?” We wanted to do a full audit of the contribution agreement, as we're allowed to under the contribution agreement.

On the human resources side, as Mr. Masse said, since I don't have actual.... I accept what Mr. Brock said. The buck stops with me on everything. I agree with that, but I need to do it in a way that is fair, sound and legal. I do not have the power under the act or the contribution agreement to go and take the human resources records of that independent entity, which Parliament decided would be independent. I need to ask the board to give me that. I do not have that power.

We said, “Give us that information and waive any covenants you have with the employees. Allow people to speak freely. We need to get to the bottom of this. If you don't, I will make sure that you do, because I'll fire you.” They agreed and said we're going to get access to that. We're going to get the evidence that is coming. On the basis of evidence—not allegations, but evidence—we can then take the appropriate action and say that these allegations have now been proven and we have enough facts to support the decision we're going to be making. That's the process.

I've been making sure that the employees—to Mr. Masse's point—are protected, and that we do that fairly but swiftly. That's another thing my colleagues in the opposition have already said. I've even suspended the funding, pending the investigation, to protect the public interest.

I feel that as minister, I am not the chair of the board. I am not the CEO of this independent organization. I am not the deputy minister. As minister, I have done everything I think I'm allowed to do under the law and the contract to protect the public interest.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

You have 10 seconds, but I'll give you 20.

Go ahead.