Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 19th, 2025

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

—but ultimately, when you make a decision—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I'm going to have to finish it there.

Mr. Sari, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sabia, once again, thank you for being here and for your patience.

I'm going to start by giving you an opportunity to explain further. You talked about the two verification processes being independent, namely Mr. Blanchard's team's political verification process and the public service team's verification process. Could you elaborate on the two verification processes being independent of one another?

[Michael Sabia]

Government decision-making is essentially based on two processes, one of which is led by the public service. We are responsible for conducting our own analysis and advising the government, whether it be the Prime Minister or other ministers. That's part of our job.

There's another process that operates somewhat parallel to the activities of the public service. This is the government's political interest assessment process. Each minister's office and the Prime Minister's Office are responsible for this process.

Government decision-making therefore essentially involves two perspectives: that of the public service and that of the political service. The combination of these two independent perspectives is the driving force behind government decision-making. It's exactly the same thing when it comes to managing the conflict of interest screen. There are these two perspectives.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Earlier, you had a discussion with Mr. Cooper, but you were interrupted while answering. I'd like you to further expand your response to Mr. Cooper earlier. He was talking to you about your role.

Could you explain that further?

[Michael Sabia]

Remind me of the context.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Mr. Cooper's question was on the conflict of interest issue. It was during the first round.

[Michael Sabia]

I don't recall my discussion with Mr. Cooper. I apologize.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That's okay. I'm going to ask you another question.

When you started your current position, did you receive any training, assistance or support to fulfill your role?

[Michael Sabia]

Are you talking about training to manage the conflict of interest screen?

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Yes, exactly.

[Michael Sabia]

I would say yes, in the sense that I had several conversations with the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner on managing the screen applied to the Prime Minister, as well as several other conversations essentially with the commissioner's team on my own activities and affairs. Through those conversations, I think I developed a deep understanding of the nature of this work.

Also, I worked at the Department of Finance years ago, which is basically the same environment. The nature of the work is not exactly the same, but based on my experience at the Department of Finance and my conversations with the commissioner, I can say yes.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

I have the question that Mr. Cooper asked earlier: Are you not uncomfortable being both a subordinate and a manager of cabinet?

[Michael Sabia]

No, not at all. Honestly, in the conversations I had with the Prime Minister before accepting this appointment, I told him that I would always be very candid about my perspective and advice. I told him that I was sure he would completely disagree with my perspective in certain circumstances, but that I wasn't going to change that, because my role would be to give him the best advice I could from a public service perspective.

To me, telling the Prime Minister to impose a conflict of interest screen, even in a case where the Prime Minister may not agree with something—

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

That leads me to my last question: Has the Prime Minister ever questioned your perspective?

[Michael Sabia]

Are you talking about political issues?

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Yes.

[Michael Sabia]

He does it every day.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Sari.

Mr. Thériault, we will conclude with you and you have the floor for two minutes and 30 seconds.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

It's quite a feat to finish in two and a half minutes.

The Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner wants to reintroduce the concept of a perceived conflict of interest and wants it to be reported if necessary. I understood that you agreed with that.

This morning, Radio-Canada explained that, in the eyes of Prime Minister Mark Carney, the Gulf region is now a trading partner that could be as important as a number of Asian countries, just behind Europe. Also this morning, while the Prime Minister was there, Brookfield announced the launch of a $100‑billion global AI infrastructure program, in partnership with Nvidia and the Kuwait investment authority.

As Clerk of the Privy Council, do you see that as an annoying coincidence? What do you think taxpayers might see in the region being promoted? On the same day, the Prime Minister makes his statement and Brookfield, of which he owns shares and assets, announces that kind of investment. I guess these people mustn't talk to each other.

[Michael Sabia]

I don't think that's a problem at all.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Isn't there a perceived conflict of interest for someone watching from home?

[Michael Sabia]

In my opinion, no.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Do you see no perceived conflict of interest in that?