Evidence of meeting #16 for Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was screen.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Sabia  Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

I call this meeting to order.

Good afternoon.

Welcome to meeting number 16 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Access to Information, Privacy and Ethics.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(3)(h), the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 17, 2025, and the order of reference of October 28, 2025, the committee is resuming its review of the Conflict of Interest Act.

I'd like to welcome our first witness for today. From the Privy Council Office, we have Mr. Michael Sabia, Clerk of the Privy Council and secretary to the cabinet. Mr. Sabia, welcome to the committee.

Before we begin, I want to remind you, sir, to make sure you have your earpiece on for interpretation, if you need it, because we don't want any delays in the interpretation. I'm saying that this committee, historically, since this session has started, has been a francophone committee. I just want to make sure you're clear on that.

Mr. Sabia, I know that you've also asked for up to eight minutes to address the committee. I'm going to grant that, and I invite you to start now.

Go ahead, sir.

Michael Sabia Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, I think we all know that democracies around the world are under pressure from lots of different sources—social media disinformation, globalization and a string of health and financial crises. All of them contribute to that pressure.

That said, according to organizations from the OECD to not-for-profit organizations like Freedom House, Canada is doing very well in terms of the quality of our democracy relative to the rest of the world.

Why is that? I guess there are many reasons, but at least in part, it is the result of a deep-rooted culture of integrity that we are lucky to have here in Canada—the integrity of public office holders and, of course, of the public service. That culture of integrity is the basis on which strong democracies are built. In my view, that's Canada.

While culture is hard to measure, as we all know, we do see proof of the quality of Canadian democracy everywhere. It's in our rules, in our laws and in our processes. For instance, all Canadian public servants are subject to a rigorous values and ethics code.

Most relevant for today's conversation, obviously, is the question of the Conflict of Interest Act, an act that plays an important role in reinforcing that culture of integrity. The work of your committee also plays an important part in that, because fundamentally, this is about Parliament ensuring that the Conflict of Interest Act is effective in upholding the transparency and accountability that contribute to Canadian democracy.

With respect to the Prime Minister's blind trust and the screen, like every other public office holder since 2007, the Prime Minister is subject to requirements under the Conflict of Interest Act. In addition, the Prime Minister and the Ethics Commissioner have agreed to and published a public declaration on agreed compliance measures, which include the screen and the blind trust. As you've heard already from the Ethics Commissioner, the blind trust and the screen are in place to promote transparency and public confidence in decision-making. In Canada, I think we're all pretty familiar with those screens. They've been in place for many years in public and private institutions and under governments of varying political stripes.

It's also worth remembering that the Conflict of Interest Act and tools like the screen are in place to enable government to attract people with diverse backgrounds, including from the private sector, while ensuring the integrity of decision-making.

How does it work? We've put in place a rigorous process to implement the screen, and that has been fully validated by the Ethics Commissioner.

As a first step, policy decisions that might trigger the screen are identified and reported to the senior management of departments and agencies as they arise. Then departments and the Privy Council Office conduct a very robust case-by-case due diligence examination. At that point, if there appears to be even a remote possibility that the screen may be needed, it is immediately put in place. Why is that? It's so that we always err on the side of caution.

To ensure that those principles underlying the screen are consistently applied, we've developed a comprehensive assessment tool that provides a framework to assist in the analysis. I'm happy to table that tool today for members of the committee.

Government officials receive rigorous training across the public service, especially in the most relevant departments. Both the assessment tool and the training materials have been thoroughly reviewed and validated by the Ethics Commissioner.

Following the work in departments and following work in the Privy Council Office, the deputy secretary for governance at the PCO then makes a recommendation on the screen's application. As an administrator of the screen, I review that recommendation and take a decision.

All the advice, as you know, from the public service on the full range of issues for the Prime Minister comes through the Clerk of the Privy Council. That perspective gives me a broad perspective, and that broad perspective is critical in my role as an administrator. I would like to say that I regard that role as an administrator as a very important duty.

Finally, decisions are shared with the Prime Minister's chief of staff—the second administrator—for concurrence and immediate implementation.

Although it is not mandatory under the Conflict of Interest Act to disclose the manner in which the screen is applied, I want to share as much information as possible with committee members and Canadians.

We decided to ask whether the screen should be applied to 13 situations. Every single one, without exception, was validated by the Conflict of Interest and Ethics Commissioner.

According to the principles underlying the assessment tool validated by the Ethics Commissioner, the screen did not apply to seven of the situations. Five of those seven cases did not involve any direct interaction with the companies subject to the screen. The other two situations pertained to tax measures on matters of general application.

The screen did apply to the six remaining situations. The Ethics Commissioner was clear: the Prime Minister cannot be informed of the matters before a final decision is made public. Otherwise, it would go against the very purpose of the screen. The Prime Minister is not aware of four of the six matters to which the screen applies. The other two cases are now public information, with a final decision having been made. I'm sure you'll have questions about those cases, so I would be pleased to discuss them.

In short, we believe we have established a very rigorous system that is applied with great care and attention. The public service is well aware of its responsibility to always ensure the integrity of the office of Prime Minister.

I would now be happy to take your questions and look forward to reading your recommendations.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

Thank you, Mr. Sabia.

Before we begin, I want to make sure for the sake of the interpreters that we're not talking over each other, so let the question be asked and let the answer be given.

I understand, Mr. Sabia, that you also said that you have the assessment tool, which I think I have in front of me, and that you would like it to be distributed now to the members of the committee.

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

I'd be happy to do so.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative John Brassard

We are going to start with our six-minute rounds. Mr. Barrett is going to begin.

Go ahead, Mr. Barrett, please.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

On what date did the ethics screen for the Prime Minister come into force?

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

Mr. Barrett, there are two stages in this process.

The screen that is in place now is the result of pretty exhaustive work on the part of the Ethics Commissioner with respect to the disclosure provided by the Prime Minister. That screen was put in place on July 10, I believe.

Prior to that, on an interim basis, a somewhat simplified screen was in place very shortly after the Prime Minister became prime minister, until the more fully elaborated screen came into place on July 10.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

Are you able to articulate, perhaps in writing to the committee, unless you're able to do it now, the differences between that screen and the initial screen that followed very shortly after the Prime Minister assumed the role?

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

The principal change between the two, and it's pretty logical, is that after the disclosure of the Prime Minister to the Ethics Commissioner, a full overview of the assets of the Prime Minister was provided to the Ethics Commissioner. That enabled the Ethics Commissioner to develop a list of 103 companies, and that list is published on the site of the Ethics Commissioner. The principal difference between the two, even with some minor differences, is that the screen that's in place now contains the 103 companies that are the result of the Prime Minister's disclosure.

Prior to that, it was primarily focused around Brookfield and Brookfield companies, because while the Prime Minister had made disclosure, the Ethics Commissioner hadn't completed his work on it. That's the principal difference between the first one and the second one.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

How will Prime Minister Carney's planned cuts to the public service affect the units responsible for the conflict of interest screening, as it's—

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

Those reductions will not affect this.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

There are documents that show that the machinery of government secretariat vetted the guest lists for the Prime Minister's London and New York meetings. Would the vetting process be compromised, or would the structure of it be changed in any way by these cuts?

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

No.

Mr. Barrett, let's back up a bit.

The government has priorities, as you know. One of those priorities is the prudent and rigorous application of this screen. As we go about the task of continuing to right-size the public service for the future, clearly one of our jobs and one of our responsibilities is to ensure that the priorities of the government are always able to be implemented. This being one of those priorities, we will ensure that the workforce—the people who are responsible for the operation of the screen, etc.—continue to be able to discharge their responsibilities fully.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

In a word, any reductions—

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

As you'll find, it's hard for me to give you a word—

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

—any reductions to the machinery of government, to the team that is currently being used to implement the screen, will not be affected by any cuts.

4:40 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

The answer is that we will continue to administer the screen fully and prudently. There will be no compromise or impact on the ability of the public service to operate the screen now, during or after the reduction.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

If I may, sir, will the size of the team change?

4:45 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

My point, to be direct, is that it doesn't really work that way.

Can I explain?

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

Well, I have very limited time. I have a little less than a minute left.

4:45 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

Well, I'll give you the 30-second answer.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

I'll give you 15 seconds, sir.

4:45 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

Okay.

The way this works is that it's embedded across the public service. It's embedded in the principal departments where there is responsibility for the sectors in which the screen is most likely to be applied, so it involves a highly decentralized system.

Yes, at the end of the day, it is overseen by the Privy Council Office and by me, but it's a mistake to think that there's just a small, dedicated group of people working on this. Like other priorities of the government, this is something that reaches into departments.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

Michael Barrett Conservative Leeds—Grenville—Thousand Islands—Rideau Lakes, ON

You sold your controlled assets, your shares in Brookfield, to avoid conflicts. Shouldn't the Prime Minister, or any prime minister, do the same, to prevent influencing decisions that will have a direct benefit to their financial interests?

4:45 p.m.

Clerk of the Privy Council and Secretary to the Cabinet, Privy Council Office

Michael Sabia

I think that you partially correctly and partially incorrectly characterize my thinking around my decision to dispose of my investments in Brookfield.

First off, as a matter of record, for good and reasonable reasons, my assets have been in a blind trust pretty much since 2009, when I started working at La Caisse de dépôt et placement du Québec—