Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 19th, 2025

[Michael Sabia]

They are more than available. I would say that the Office of the Ethics Commissioner is not just available: The Office of the Ethics Commissioner is an integral part of the process, in that the definition of the structure of the screen that was put in place and the nature of the blind trust that was put in place were essentially at the demand of the Ethics Commissioner. They were structured by the Ethics Commissioner and his office. That was step one.

Step two is in the day-to-day operation of the screen. We collaborate fully. It's almost—I'm exaggerating a bit—that the operation of the screen is a tripartite operation of the public service and the political level of government, through the Prime Minister's chief of staff, and the Ethics Commissioner. That kind of collaboration, as I was saying to Mr. Cooper, is a better way of maximizing information.

[Leslie Church, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Yes, and it's probably to keep tabs on any change in information as well, and ensure that any changes in information are clear.

[Michael Sabia]

Yes, of course.

[Leslie Church, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Clerk, from a machinery of government perspective, how common is it for the Office of the Ethics Commissioner to be working directly with the Prime Minister's Office or other offices to establish compliance mechanisms like a conflict of interest screen? You touched on this in your opening remarks, but maybe just for our benefit....

[Michael Sabia]

I think it's very common and very appropriate.

The Ethics Commissioner is, by nature, a different entity, because the Ethics Commissioner and that office are officers of Parliament. We are part of the government, part of the executive branch of the government.

Parliamentary oversight of issues like conflict and accountability and other things is fundamental to how our democratic system works. Having the Ethics Commissioner involved in structuring these for the Prime Minister, for other ministers and for other public office holders, as the Ethics Commissioner does, is the right thing to do, because, as an officer of Parliament, he is accountable to Parliament and accountable to the judgment of all of you—

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I have to ask you to wrap up.

[Michael Sabia]

—as elected parliamentarians. That is, in terms of accountability and transparency, the right thing to do.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Sabia, we're over time.

I'm sorry, Ms. Church.

[Leslie Church, Liberal, Toronto—St. Paul's, ON]

Thank you, Clerk.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Mr. Sabia, during the leadership race, Mr. Carney developed a vision that can be found in Bill C‑5. That is Mr. Carney's bill, is it not?

[Michael Sabia]

Yes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

To make things easier, wouldn't it have been simpler for Mr. Carney to do as you did and divest himself of his assets in Brookfield?

[Michael Sabia]

Mr. Thériault—

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

That's a question we're asking ourselves, as a committee, because we have to revise the act. Should we go so far as to differentiate the rules and requirements for the highest office in the land? It's important for the highest office in the land to set an example and demonstrate transparency. If the Prime Minister can manage things if a minister around the table deviates from something, who manages things for the Prime Minister?

It's you and the chief of staff.

Should he have done what you did? What you've done is exemplary.

[Michael Sabia]

That's exactly the role and importance of the screen. That's exactly why the screen exists.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Yes, we'll come back to that.

So your answer is no, as there is a screen.

[Michael Sabia]

That's my answer.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay. We're making progress.

[Michael Sabia]

Slowly.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

I listened to you earlier, but I'll ask you the question again: Do you know what's in the blind trust?

[Michael Sabia]

Overall, I understand the disclosure made by the Prime Minister that is published on the Commissioner's website.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Do you have interactions with the trustee?

[Michael Sabia]

No.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

You have no interactions at all. So you can't know how it fluctuates and what changes in that trust. To some extent, you yourself are blind in the advice you can give the Prime Minister.

How do you apply the screen properly if you don't know what's in that blind trust?