Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 19th, 2025

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Majumdar.

Mr. Sabia, I failed to ask as we moved into the second hour, are you okay?

We're on a roll. Do you need a break at all, or are you good?

[Michael Sabia]

It doesn't feel like a roll.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Well, I mean, it is a kind of roll. People are asking questions. You're answering them.

Do you need a break, sir?

[Michael Sabia]

Not right away, but can I keep the option open?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

For minus 15 minutes before we're over, no.

[Michael Sabia]

No, seriously, can I keep the option open? Because if not, I'll take it now.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

If you need it, just let me know.

Mr. Sari, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, Mr. Sabia, for being with us this afternoon. A number of the points you raised are very interesting and help to enlighten the opposition.

Before I ask my question, I'd like to come back to something you said in your introduction that I thought was brilliant. You were talking about democracy, which is experiencing some fragility, not only in Canada, but around the world. With the polarization of discourse on social media, this is becoming an increasingly important issue. More than ever, as elected officials and public figures, we have to be careful about what we say. That brings me to my question.

We sometimes hear comments such as that the conflict of interest screen hides information or prevents accountability. As Clerk of the Privy Council, can you clarify what the screen does and doesn't do?

[Michael Sabia]

Our system is doing well globally and, frankly, it is thanks to the Conservative government that brought into force the Conflict of Interest Act a number of years ago. I think that was a good thing because, when we compare our system to all the structures that exist in the world, we see that it is among the best, particularly because of the requirements of our legislation, including the Conflict of Interest Act.

Canadians should also be proud of the fact that, according to an OECD analysis, Canada ranks fourth out of 30 OECD members in terms of the quality of its democracy. In addition, according to Freedom House, an organization completely independent of governments, the quality of our democracy ranks us first in the G7 and fifth in the world. That makes me proud to be a Canadian because, as you said, democracy is under pressure globally, but Canada remains a strong democracy. All Canadians should be proud of this position.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

To go back to my question, can you quickly simplify, for the confidence of the Canadians who are following our work, what the conflict of interest screen does and what it doesn't do?

[Michael Sabia]

Essentially, the screen is a way to ensure that the Prime Minister, or any other minister, is not involved in making a decision that could create a conflict of interest. It's simply a way of excluding someone, such as a prime minister or a minister, from a circumstance where they would be responsible for making a decision that could serve one of their private interests.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Let's say there's a problem related to the screen. Will that problem be redirected to the departmental channels or the appropriate services to manage it? Will the process to address that problem continue without being set aside or hidden? Sometimes we hear that it could be disturbed or hidden. Do you think the process is appropriate and ongoing?

[Michael Sabia]

I think the process is very appropriate. That's why I said it at the beginning of my remarks and why I talked about the 13 cases. We're not in a position to discuss some of those cases. As for the others, I think that, as much as possible, we are very comfortable acting transparently and presenting the facts of each of those circumstances.

I think that level of transparency will bolster everyone's confidence in our system because the system clearly works.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Now let's talk about the impartiality of public servants. That obviously overlaps with compliance systems, such as the screen we just talked about. Are those mechanisms used across government, or are there services where they are not used?

[Michael Sabia]

It's across the Government of Canada.

[Abdelhaq Sari, Liberal, Bourassa, QC]

Is it across all departments?

[Michael Sabia]

Absolutely.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Sabia, how many times since the beginning of your mandate have you asked the Prime Minister to recuse himself?

[Michael Sabia]

Six times.

However, you chose certain words. It was not a request, but a decision by me and Mr. Blanchard to use a conflict of interest screen. We did not ask the Prime Minister to recuse himself.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So you required the Prime Minister to recuse himself six times.

[Michael Sabia]

Yes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Which times? What was the issue?

[Michael Sabia]

I don't understand your question.