Information & Ethics Committee on Nov. 19th, 2025

[Michael Sabia]

I understand your question. In July, the Commissioner made a decision on the process of creating a blind trust and the screen. He made the decision that the content is essentially the content that exists at the time of disclosure or the design of the screen. At that time, the Prime Minister was aware of the elements of his disclosure.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

So he was aware of the appearance of a conflict of interest.

[Michael Sabia]

No, hold on. He was aware of those elements at the time, but if his trustee decides to change things or sell something, the Prime Minister is not aware of it. As a result, the possibility of a conflict of interest disappears.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

In your role as Clerk of the Privy Council, you said that you have to work with departments and agencies, but you also have to advise and support ministers and the Prime Minister in political decision-making. However, if you don't know what's in the trust, can you really apply the conflict of interest screen as effectively as possible?

[Michael Sabia]

Yes, for the same reason.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Okay, that's your answer. However, the Ethics Commissioner came to tell us that he wasn't interested in monitoring the application of the conflict of interest screen. He knows the content, but he told us he wasn't going to do that monitoring, since he would then be judge and jury. So that task falls to you.

How many times have you consulted the Commissioner in recent months, since your disclosure and since Mr. Carney came to power, to ask him whether you were providing appropriate advice, based on what he knew about the content and his view of the screen?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Thériault, your time is up.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Has it already been five minutes? This is fascinating, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

I think our Liberal colleagues also need time.

I'm trying to be fair to everybody here. We may go over by a second. I don't need anybody yelling in my ear that it's time. I'm keeping time.

Mr. Hardy, go ahead for five minutes.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Mr. Sabia, thank you very much for being with us.

The goal here is not to find culprits, but to ensure that the measures we put in place help preserve the trust of Canadians and Quebeckers in politics. We also want to reassure those who follow our work, as politics and democracy are in a bit of a crisis. In your opening remarks, you said that democracy was under pressure. So, here in committee, we want to make sure that people can have confidence in our institutions.

I read a report by your predecessor, Mr. Hannaford, who was praised by Mr. Wernick, who also held your position in the past. In his report, which was exceptional, he said:

Public trust takes ongoing, sustained efforts to earn but can be lost quickly through ethical breaches, conflict of interest and service shortcomings, as we have seen recently in multiple jurisdictions. Even the perception of a breach is enough to undermine public trust.

Do you agree with that?

[Michael Sabia]

I think he was referring to the quality of services provided to Canadians.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

His report covers a lot of elements, but he talks a lot about public trust in institutions and the responsibility of the government and politicians to ensure that decisions are always in the best interests of the people.

Do you agree with that?

[Michael Sabia]

Yes, but in this case, it was about improving the quality of services provided to Canadians.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

What do you think of my last statement? Do you agree that the government and we politicians have a responsibility to ensure that people have trust in our institutions?

[Michael Sabia]

Yes.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

We agree, perfect.

In a time of crisis when, as you said, democracy is under pressure, two things are extremely important: transparency and overcorrection. Those things are important so that people can see that we're really making an effort.

Do you agree with that, as well?

[Michael Sabia]

Yes.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

Great.

Earlier, you said that when you took office you made the decision very quickly, in 15 minutes, to sell your Brookfield assets because you saw a problem with that in terms of the work you were going to be doing. You wanted to make sure that your approach would always be measured and thoughtful, without being influenced by something that could undermine your work.

Do you think the Prime Minister should have done the same thing before being appointed to such an important position, to apply the concept of overcorrection that I was talking about, in order to avoid problems for himself and his staff? He could have said, “I know I come from the private sector and I've made a lot of money in my life through stocks and all that, but now I'm going to put that aside to look after the country's interests.”

[Michael Sabia]

I have two comments on that.

First, I'm going to repeat myself, but that's why we put a screen in place. We use it to protect the office of Prime Minister from potential conflicts of interest.

Second, in life, as you well know, we always have to strike a balance between things. Yes, we have a screen to preserve the trust of Canadians, which is obviously extremely important. However, we also need a system that works and that enables us, as a country and as a government, to continue encouraging very talented people, whether they come from the private sector or elsewhere, to join us in strengthening the Government of Canada. So it's a matter of finding a balance between those two responsibilities.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

I'll follow up on what you said.

We're in a situation where democracy is under enormous pressure, and we have to overcorrect. So finding a fine balance is one thing.

The other thing is that Mr. Wernick, your predecessor, told us that politics is, most of the time, something very short in the life of a professional. They come into politics and then they leave. The Prime Minister himself, during his election campaign, said that he was only here to resolve the crisis. However, at a time when we need a response to this crisis, the Prime Minister, who has been extremely involved in the financial world, which has all kinds of ramifications, is putting himself in a situation that is causing Canadians to doubt our institutions.

Is it responsible to do that?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Sabia, please answer in 10 seconds.

[Michael Sabia]

That's impossible.

[Gabriel Hardy, Conservative, Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC]

All you have to say is that you agree with me.

[Michael Sabia]

One way to bolster Canadians' confidence is to ensure that the government is able to do things that are important to them and get the country out of the current crisis. That's important.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you.

Mr. Saini, you have five minutes.

Go ahead, sir.