Information & Ethics Committee on Dec. 8th, 2025

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. Thériault, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

When I asked Mr. Sabia and Mr. Blanchard how many times they had asked the Prime Minister to recuse himself, they corrected me and told me that they don't ask him; they impose it on him. Mr. Blanchard told me that he had imposed on Mr. Carney not to meet with the companies listed on his statement. I asked him the following question: Was that also imposed for telephone communications? Was Mr. Carney instructed not to communicate with Brookfield? His answer was no. He told me that Mr. Carney holds himself to the highest standards.

I have to admit that I was frankly perplexed by that answer. I was told that there's ultimately no need to tell him not to communicate with those people, not to call them and not to receive their calls, because he knows his obligations. We know that Mr. Carney must have quite a full address book.

If the same logic had been applied to the matter of the blind trust, a blind trust wouldn't have been imposed on him. He would have been told that he knew his obligations and that he set himself the highest standards possible.

Don't you think that shows a lack of rigour on Mr. Blanchard's part as a manager of a conflict of interest screen?

Doesn't that show that a chief of staff isn't the right person to manage this screen?

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Mr. von Finckenstein, you have 50 seconds.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

The fact that you said the screen doesn't apply to phone calls surprises me, frankly.

It's a matter of communication with the company. I haven't seen the exact example you cited, but I can tell you that if Mr. Blanchard or Mr. Sabia know that Mr. Carney is going to talk to people at Brookfield, they will be required to tell him that there's a conflict of interest screen and that he can't do that.

I was surprised to hear you say that the screen doesn't apply. Mr. Blanchard has done exactly that.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Excuse me, gentlemen. Time is up.

[Luc Thériault, Bloc, Montcalm, QC]

What he said is in the blues. You can go and check.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

Thank you, Mr. Thériault.

We're going to suspend for a couple of minutes, and then I'm going to restart the clock.

[The Chair, Conservative, John Brassard]

We're back for the second hour. We're going to play it by ear and see how much time we have. We should be able to get three rounds in.

We're going to start with Mr. Cooper for six minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair,

Commissioner, on April 30, two days after the federal election, Mark Carney was personally lobbied by NorthRiver Midstream. NorthRiver Midstream is a Brookfield portfolio company that is subject to the ethics screen. Did Mr. Carney or his office contact you prior to meeting with NorthRiver Midstream?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

As I've told you before, any conversation I have with Mr. Carney, etc., is confidential. If there's anything made public—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Okay—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

—it's from him, not from us.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Thank you for that.

We know that Mr. Carney was lobbied by NorthRiver Midstream. Mr. Carney, on May 6, a week later, met with Sam Pollock, the CEO of Brookfield Infrastructure in Washington, D.C. Brookfield Infrastructure is also subject to the ethics screen. It has recently come to light that, in October, Mr. Carney met with the chief operating officer of Brookfield, Justin Beber, in the Prime Minister's Office.

Here we have a pattern of Mr. Carney meeting with top Brookfield executives who have direct access to the Prime Minister as well as Brookfield-owned companies. Is this what you envisioned when you set up the ethics screen?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I wish you would not focus on the ethics screen but understand the system. The system is clear. If there's a conflict of interest, the Prime Minister has to recuse himself, and his recusal is made public. That is the basic rule.

To help him live up to...because he's a busy man and he deals with thousands of issues, the office has established a screen to try to make sure that he doesn't get exposed to it. That's what—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Commissioner—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

You're asking me what the screen has to do—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

The conflicts involving the Prime Minister are so vast with respect to Brookfield that you saw it necessary to implement a screen as a precautionary measure.

Mr. Sabia said that you told the Prime Minister to basically stay away from Brookfield, yet here we have the Prime Minister meeting with the chief operating officer, being personally lobbied by one of the major Brookfield companies that is on the list of companies that is captured in the screen.

I'm asking you, does that not raise questions about whether, in the face of all of Mr. Carney's conflicts, Brookfield has a direct line to the Prime Minister?

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

The incidents that you recited just now, would you please recite them again? Which ones are you talking about?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

NorthRiver Midstream: the Prime Minister was personally lobbied by them. He met with Sam Pollock—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

What do you mean by “personally lobbied by them”?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

Well, he was lobbied by NorthRiver Midstream on April 30. They met with him, and on May 6—

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

I'm sorry. When you say he was “lobbied”, is there—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

There's a disclosure of that.

[Konrad von Finckenstein]

There's a disclosure under the Lobbying Act that they made a representation to Mr. Carney?

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Sturgeon River, AB]

That's right.