Finance Committee on Dec. 7th, 2006

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I can't talk about the individual case because it is confidential. I would like to reassure you, though, that we are speaking to the first nations leadership. I've met with Chief Fontaine, and after Christmas we are going to be looking seriously at what we can do to help the first nations and people right across this country with the problems you were mentioning.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

In the case that concerns us, I think that if the band council had been informed that the Agency was conducting an investigation, that a family support mechanism could have been put in place to help them properly complete the questionnaires or that steps could have been taken with the agency to explain a number of things such as why some requests were not applicable or irrelevant for aboriginal people. I wanted to know whether concretely, beyond the fact that you met Mr. Fontaine, efforts of this kind were going to be made over the next few months.

[Michel Dorais, Commissioner, Canada Revenue Agency]

Mr. Chairman, I would like to thank the MP for his question. It is clear that in this specific case, it is difficult for us to discuss the details. The member knows full well that we met the community, and we are continuing to work with it to find a very positive outcome.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I am not speaking about this case in particular. The case is an eye-opener, an illustration. The problem is more general. I know that there is another community in the North Shore area that found itself in the same situation.

Is there no way different way to administer programs, audits and investigations in aboriginal communities?

[William Baker, Deputy Commissioner and Chief Operating Officer, Canada Revenue Agency]

Yes. Sometimes we launch projects that affect all the aboriginal communities throughout the country. We always try to find ways of addressing their needs. There are going to be many discussions with these community chiefs to identify the best way of administering these programs.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

I will return in a moment to the audit programs. Madam Minister, in Quebec, there are two treatment centres, one in Shawinigan and the other in Jonquière.

Will these two centres remain operational in the short term? Is there a threat that they might be closed?

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

There are no plans to close them.

[Pierre Paquette, Bloc, Joliette, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

Thank you very much, Mr. Paquette.

We will now continue with Ms. Ablonczy.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Minister, for being here.

You, of course, have the most loved department in the entire country, so the challenges are always huge. We appreciate it that you spoke to us about wanting to ensure that the agency was an enabler of small and medium-sized business. You're aware that there have been recent stories. In fact, one person, my own constituent, called me because he was very upset. In the case of my constituent, he had paid his taxes early and still got a 10% penalty. He was dinged for another $8,000 or $9,000 because he hadn't paid through a bank.

I find it kind of hard to swallow when somebody pays their bill, and it's paid not only on time but early, and then they're charged interest. I just wonder how that could be justified. And there are other such stories. I just wonder what your response is or what the agency's response is to what seems to be a manifest unfairness.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

It's been the law for a long time. It was just never enforced. The agency sent out letters and notified businesses right across the country that it was going to be enforced. The notices went out, the penalties were assessed, and businesses were notified, but there were a lot of people who were shocked because they maybe hadn't read their information from CRA or weren't notified by the people who were doing their accounting or their books.

I have asked the agency that we not enforce it until December 31, and that the people who were assessed the penalties have the assessment turned back. As of December 31, it will be the law. After that, if they don't comply with the law, then they will be fined, shall we say, or assessed the penalty, or have a penalty imposed.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I commend you for giving this period of time, but what does it matter to the agency how they get their money, as long as they get it? If they get it two weeks early, into their own hands, through a cheque or by someone bringing a bag of cash or whatever, why would they be able to insist on it being paid in a particular way?

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

A brown bag?

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

I will ignore the banter that's going back and forth across the table, but—

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

I think it's the bag of cash that—

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

When I was a small business person, I always went to my financial institution and paid my Revenue Canada bill. I had a receipt in my hand when I did that. I think it provides protection for the consumer if they go to their financial institution and have it done.

As a consumer, I was always concerned that it would get lost in the mail or something, and I didn't want Revenue Canada penalizing me for not making my payment when it was due.

Michel, can you—?

[Michel Dorais]

I can just add that this section of the Income Tax Act applies to businesses that have a monthly payroll deduction of $50,000 or more. These are large businesses in the country that are making remittances that range in the millions of dollars, and sometimes as much as over $20 million.

What was happening was that the deposits were coming to our office on Friday after 3 o'clock on a three-day weekend, so the cheque could be cashed only on Tuesday night. Given that abuse that took place, we decided to enforce the legislation that has been in existence since 1993.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

A lot of accountants, too, have complained that they used to be able to go to the government building in a particular city, go to the service counter, pay the taxes due for their client, and then get a stamp saying that, yes, the money was paid into government hands. Now these service centres are being closed down, and this is causing difficulty for accountants who want to see that service and are used to that service on behalf of their clients. I wonder if you could respond to that concern.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

When I came to the agency, I found that the whole issue of stamping, when it was brought to my attention, was offered in some locations and not in others. Rather than it being discontinued, I felt it should be expanded to all the locations. I'm assured that the practice of stamping, while not necessary for the operations of the agency, served a useful purpose. By Monday, I think stamping will be available at all locations across Canada.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

It will make for many happy accountants, I'm sure, when they hear that announcement.

[Carol Skelton, Conservative, Saskatoon—Rosetown—Biggar, SK]

Mr. Chair, I know there's skepticism, but it's true.

[An hon. member]

No. It's positive.

[The Chair, Conservative, Brian Pallister]

We'll continue now with Mr. McKay, for five minutes.

[John McKay, Liberal, Scarborough—Guildwood, ON]

All this talk about brown paper envelopes has made me wonder what's in Ms. Ablonczy's brown paper envelope over there.

[Diane Ablonczy, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

As a former parliamentary secretary, I'm sure the member will know that brown paper envelopes generally are empty.