Finance Committee on June 17th, 2021

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 57 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Finance. Pursuant to the Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, April 27, 2021, the committee is meeting to study Canada Revenue Agency's efforts to combat tax avoidance and evasion.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of January 25 of this year. Therefore, members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

For the information of the committee, as you know, we issued four summonses. We do have one witness who came. I have some letters from legal counsel for the others. We'll deal with that in a minute.

For the committee's information, Mr. Bilodeau's counsel asked if she could be with him and I authorized that. He will be the one who has to speak, though.

On the motion passed the other day, we have received responses from three individuals who have not appeared. The clerk sent those letters out, I believe, to committee members and they were marked confidential. We do now have information that they do not need to remain confidential. They can be made public.

I think the best way to start with that is that I will read into the record each letter that we received from counsel for the various people we issued summonses to. Hopefully by that time, Mr. Bilodeau will be on.

The first letter is based on the summons that we sent to Michael Morris. It's directed to the clerk of the committee. It's from firm Stockwoods Barristers. It reads:

Re: Canada Revenue Agency's Efforts to Combat Tax Avoidance and Evasion I have been retained by Michael Morris in connection with the above-noted study. I have an email from you dated June 15, 2021, to Michael Morris's brother, Ian Morris, directing Ian Morris to forward Michael Morris's contact information to you, and attaching a summons to Michael Morris calling for his appearance at the Standing Committee on Finance on June 17, 2021 at 3:30 p.m. Michael Morris is not a resident of Canada and has not resided in Canada since 1999. At present, he is outside Canada. By responding to your email, I do not intend to attorn on his behalf to Parliament's jurisdiction. That said, my client is willing to respond to reasonable requests for information from the Committee. Please forward to in writing any requests the Committee may make, and we will consider them. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours truly, Brian Gover

That's on behalf of Stockwoods LLP law firm.

The second letter is from Kapoor Barristers. It is written to the clerk of the committee, as well. It reads:

Re: Finance Committee: Ms. Gibbons and Mr. Maycock I have been retained by Ms. Susan Gibbons and Mr. William Maycock in connection with the above-noted study. Both were provided with Summons late in the day on June 15th returnable this afternoon at 15:30 ET. Neither of my clients are resident in Canada. At present, both reside outside Canada. By this letter in response to your email and the Committee's summons, neither attorn to Parliament's jurisdiction. As I mentioned to you in our telephone call, neither of my clients will be attending this afternoon. That said, both of my clients are willing to respond to reasonable requests for information from the Committee. To that end, we would be grateful if the Committee can provide us with an indication of the nature of their enquiry.

I should add that as far as we are aware the Committee's interest in our clients concerns matters in the distant past, so any direction the Committee can give will greatly assist our clients. Please forward to me in writing any requests/questions the Committee wishes and we will consider them. I look forward to hearing from you. Yours truly, Anil K. Kapoor

He is with Kapoor Barristers.

Those are the letters we received. They're on the public record. Just ignore the “confidential” that was on them when they went to committee members in the beginning.

While we're waiting for Mr. Bilodeau to be hooked up, does anybody have any thoughts?

We have a steering committee later in the day, as well, where we can also talk about these issues.

Mr. Kelly.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

If we have a moment before our witness is ready, then I will remind you, Mr. Chair, that you undertook at the last meeting to update us at the beginning of this meeting as to the status of the invitations to the two ministers who have been invited to appear on Tuesday.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

The minister for Revenue Canada is available for an hour. The Minister of Finance is not.

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

For that second hour, do we want officials? The Minister of Finance, I understand, just can't come. What do we want to do with the second hour?

[Pat Kelly, Conservative, Calgary Rocky Ridge, AB]

Perhaps the Minister of Revenue would like to stay, so that we could have a more fulsome discussion with her.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

I don't think she can. I think she's granted an hour. We usually have a minister for an hour, and then we go to officials for an hour.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

Mr. Chair, I would concur with Mr. Kelly. I think it would be worthwhile having the Minister of Revenue, who hasn't appeared before this committee, come for two hours with her officials. I think that's perfectly legitimate.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

We did invite her for an hour, and she accepted to come for an hour.

I can request that. That's not a problem. We can drop her a note. It's not until next Tuesday. We can have the clerk drop her a note and see how she responds.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Mr. Chair, we could always build on the existing invitation.

Did I not appear for two hours once at your trade committee, Wayne?

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, but we were just so nice to you, Ed, that you couldn't do anything else. I remember that.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes, but I answered questions, as I recall.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Then—what's the name of the guy; I know him well, but I can't think of his name—the man who did all the negotiations. He gave all the answers.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Steve Verheul.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, Steve Verheul.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes, he answered all the questions. He did a great job.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

He's a great guy. You were fortunate to work with him.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Yes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Mr. Bilodeau, can you hear me? You look frozen there.

I wonder, Mr. Clerk.... I don't know if this committee would agree with this, but do we have to go to voice? I wonder what the problem is here.

[The Clerk of the Committee, Mr. Alexandre Roger]

The problem was that the counsel wanted in to the committee, as well, so I sent her a guest account. Mr. Bilodeau initially was using that guest account, and that's what created the first problem. Now Mr. Bilodeau is using his own account.

I don't understand why this is not working, because he's not using the guest account. I don't have any answers. I don't understand why this is not working. He was just here under his own credentials. It was his name that was there, so I don't know.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Okay.

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

I think it's important to note, Mr. Chair, that we haven't had this problem, to this extent, with any other witness. Sometimes we have temporary problems, but this is quite rare.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, it is.

In any event, we'll—

[Peter Julian, NDP, New Westminster—Burnaby, BC]

A quarter of the meeting is already gone.

[The Chair, Liberal, Wayne Easter]

Yes, but part of that was due to the vote. We ourselves were late getting started, so we'll not blame that on Mr. Bilodeau.

Are there any thoughts on these letters? They're there for your information, in any event.

I think we need to, in the steering committee.... Certainly, they do live out of the country. If we want to draft a series of questions for them to respond to, it will take some time for us to sit down and do that, I would think.

Was it you, Peter, who wanted in, and then Pat?