Fisheries Committee on March 12th, 2020

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Okay, we'll leave it at that, but you know—suspicions confirmed.

Of course, the management of the fishing pressure on the stock is one thing. What about the habitat, particularly for the processing of the roe? Out on the west coast, we have some problems with certain types of grasses that the herring like to spawn in. What about the status of the habitat in eastern Canada?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I'm aware of spawning grounds in the habitat for herring in the gulf and the Scotian Shelf area, and I'm not so sure for the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. For stocks within the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence and along the Scotian Shelf into the Gulf of Maine, herring spawn on sandy bottoms, on banks. On the west coast, specific herring, by and large, as we're aware, spawn on algae, so on very sandy bottoms. In most of those areas during the spawning season, other types of human activities are curtailed through management measures.

From a science perspective, we don't have a concern—at least, about the spawning beds themselves.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're over your time, sir.

We will go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm going to get to this really quicky because I want to share some of my time with Mr. Fast.

Have integrated fisheries management plans been completed for these herring stocks?

[Brian Lester, Assistant Director, Integrated Resource Management , Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

I'll try to answer the question the same way I answered the commissioner of the environment and sustainable development. An IFMP needs to be taken in two parts. The first is an IFMP as a piece of paper, and the second is the integrated fisheries management plan as a process.

As for whether there is a piece of paper defining the process for each stock, I can't tell you off the top of my head. We can look that up for you and get that for you.

As Adam noted—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Please provide that information to the committee.

[Brian Lester]

Sure. We can provide you whichever ones are currently available, but the process itself doesn't change.

The science assessments are undertaken, advisory committees will meet and industry and indigenous partners provide their views. Those views are considered as part of the recommendations going to ministers. Ministers make decisions, we do post-season evaluations, and science redoes its science and goes through the process again, so the integration is there.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

These plans haven't been completed, then.

[Brian Lester]

The piece of paper? I can't tell you off the top of my head because each region does its own, but we can get those for you for sure.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay. I'm surprised you don't have that information, knowing you were coming to this committee to talk about herring management and the management of the resource.

[Adam Burns]

I would just interrupt a bit. In the prepared remarks I had, there is, region by region, a description of the current status of the management for each of the stocks.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Okay.

I'll go to a few things that are in the brief we were provided.

One is that an “inability to estimate population sizes has precluded the calculation of stock status zones and reference points.” Also, “no analyses have been conducted to assess the effect of fishing pressure” on the stocks. “The lack of information on herring population structure in the northern Gulf of St. Lawrence is the main source of uncertainty.”

Mr. Burns, as the director general for fisheries resource management, can you explain why you're not able to manage this resource?

[Adam Burns]

I think the references that you are making relate to the science. Certainly we are making active decisions on the management of all of these stocks based on what is generally reasonably good science, so there is an active management regime in place for all of the herring stocks.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I'm going to pass the rest of my time to Mr. Fast.

Thank you.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Gentlemen, you'll understand why we're frustrated over here, because even on the government side we heard statements like the information that's coming from you is mushy. My colleague Mr. Hardie referred to you as artful dodgers.

I'm confused as well. According to the 2018-2019 stock update for the coast of Nova Scotia, and I'm quoting from it, there is no basis for evaluating the current catch allocation due to the absence of recent information about stock status.

Based on that, how do you make a determination and approve an allowable catch? Every year you approve an allowable catch. There's more and more of this stock being taken, and yet you've admitted that there's no basis for evaluating the current catch allocation.

You can sense the frustration around this table that somehow the department doesn't have a firm grasp on this issue, and right now I have no confidence, based on the testimony we've heard from you, that we're going to see an improvement here.

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I can address the science aspects of that.

As I said, I'm a scientist with maritimes region, and Atlantic herring does fall under the responsibilities of my division. In maritimes region, the vast majority of the catch comes from the southwest Nova Scotia Bay of Fundy stock complex, and that is the target of most of our science effort because the majority of the catches are derived from that unit.

There are several other components within the Scotia-Fundy region, particularly along the coast of Nova Scotia and offshore. The amount of fishing that occurs in those areas is very low compared to the efforts targeting the southwest Nova Scotia Bay of Fundy stock. Within science, we've made a strategic decision to focus our efforts on the stock for which the majority effort occurs.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Okay, but there's no easy fix for this. Finding other sources for bait is an ongoing process. We don't have that really available yet, so there may not be an improvement for some time. Is that a correct assessment?

[Adam Burns]

An improvement in the...?

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

The stocks.

Okay, your pause says it all.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Your time is—

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I have one other question. We're talking about the northwest Atlantic fishery, correct? That includes the United States, if you expand. Is there a herring bait fishery in the United States as well?

[Dr. Kent Smedbol]

I know there's a herring fishery; I'm not sure about a bait fishery.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Okay, now, the bait itself and the general herring commercial fishery are different, but they're the same fish. Is that correct?

[A voice]

Yes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

All right. Is there any coordination taking place between the United States and Canada to make sure we get a real handle on this problem and find a fix?