Evidence of meeting #5 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was information.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Arnold.
We'll now go to Mr. Battiste. You have six minutes or less.
March 12th, 2020 / 9 a.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Good morning, gentlemen. Thank you for the presentation.
When we were talking about herring, you mentioned some of the areas of concern. Can you give me a little bit of information on the long-term solution is that is seen for the reduction in the herring stocks?
9 a.m.
Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As I noted to Mr. Arnold, the main tool we currently have at our disposal is related to fishing effort. Once there's additional science that may point to other sources of mortality, we could look at additional measures that could be implemented to address those, potentially.
At this point we don't have a clear scientific basis upon which we would base any other types of measures.
Marc, do you have something want to add?
9 a.m.
Marc LeCouffe Acting Regional Director, Resource Management and Aboriginal Fisheries Branch, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Part of the management measures that we use—and they are linked to fishing—is protecting known herring spawning beds to allow them a better chance to lay their eggs and for those eggs to develop.
Other than that, yes, we manage the fisheries. We are consulting with industry members on trying to develop rebuilding plans for the various herring stocks. Those consultations are ongoing and may end up with certain solutions. We came up with the protection of spawning beds, for example, through consultation with the industry back in 2005.
It is going to be difficult to say right now what is going to be in the future, Mr. Battiste.
9 a.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
I'm not sure if I got the answer I was looking for.
You guys talked about fishing efforts. Can you clarify what you mean when you say you're looking at fishing efforts? We all want to see the herring stock go back up. We're all concerned with what's going on. I've seen that it's critical and on the decline. What are the practical solutions; what are we doing about this?
9:05 a.m.
Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
We have implemented quota reductions in certain areas, and continue to—
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
Can you tell me about those reductions? Were they in collaboration with the fishermen as well?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Regional Director, Resource Management and Aboriginal Fisheries Branch, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Yes, absolutely. The quota reductions are always discussed at every advisory committee meeting with industry members. That's how we arrive at the various changes that have occurred over the past few years, including major reductions in quota.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
When you say “major”, would you give a percentage of what that reduction is?
9:05 a.m.
Acting Regional Director, Resource Management and Aboriginal Fisheries Branch, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'll go back to 2005 for the spring herring spawning component in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.
Quotas at the time were around 20,000 tonnes. That year, we brought it down to 2,000 tonnes, so that's a major reduction. Based on the known fishing effort, a quota of 2,000 tonnes should give landings normally of around 1,200 to 1,300 tonnes of herring. That's because some areas do not fish or don't catch their entire allocation. Last year, that quota was dropped again to 1,250 tonnes, I believe, for the spring herring quota, so quota reductions have occurred.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
9:05 a.m.
Acting Regional Director, Resource Management and Aboriginal Fisheries Branch, Gulf Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
That's correct.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
With that in mind, one of the things in my riding is that a great number of fishermen out there rely on the herring for snow crab and lobster. As of right now, with these large-scale reductions in herring, what can we do? Have there been any alternative measures looked at to find other areas or other things we could use to help the fishermen in my riding, the snow crabbers and lobster fishermen, to replace what they originally would have used, the herring? Maybe it's things like seal meat or possibly Asian carp.
9:05 a.m.
Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I can start, and others may want to add. I can begin by telling you we don't currently restrict, through licence condition, what can be used as bait for either the lobster or snow crab fishery. That means, in a nutshell, that if a harvester is legally in possession of something and can legally put it in the water, then it could be used as bait.
I know there have been some pilots, I guess you could call them. It's not something we've had to authorize, but there has been some experimentation done by harvesters who have used things like seal meat to varying degrees of success, depending on the type of bait that's been used. I know in the U.S.—and I'm not sure if it's been used in Canada—there are some synthetic artificial bait products being tried as well.
There are a variety of options, and as long as it's something the harvester is legally in possession of and can legally be put in the water, we don't restrict their ability to experiment on what works for them.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
Jaime Battiste Liberal Sydney—Victoria, NS
You talked about what they're using in the United States. It's my understanding that they're using Asian carp that they've killed, cut up and quartered. Is that something we can explore in Canada as well to help these fishermen?
9:05 a.m.
Director General, Fisheries Resource Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
There are restrictions on the possession of Asian carp, which we are the appropriate people to talk about, to a certain extent. Then beyond that, I believe it's CFIA.
Fred, do you want to add?
9:05 a.m.
Frédéric Beauregard Tellier Director General, Biodiversity Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As Adam said, on our end, there are no restrictions with respect to the use of those types of bait, so under our regulations it would be possible to use Asian carp, for example, as bait, as long as the carp that is imported is dead and eviscerated. That's the rule under our regulations.
However, our understanding is that the importation of Asian carp, presumably from the United States, where there is that market, is currently prohibited under the animal health regulations that are managed by CFIA.
9:05 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Battiste. Your time is way over.
We'll go to Madame Gill for six minutes or less, please.
9:05 a.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today. I have many questions, so I'm very pleased to see them here.
Given the seriousness of the herring fishery issue, how do you explain the inability to properly assess herring stocks in certain areas, particularly division 4S? I know that there are several possible reasons.
9:10 a.m.
Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
If you were to ask a scientist, we would always say we would like to do more science and we can collect more data and we can do more analyses. That said, we are confident with the science work we have. In the northern gulf, we have acoustic surveys for herring, and we have catch monitoring.
Within DFO science, it's our responsibility to undertake monitoring of projects and research programs and to provide science advice for fisheries and a suite of other ocean issues. The one thing I can say is that the advice we give for herring and the rest of our science advice around stocks is rigorously peer-reviewed. It is transparent and is available to the public.
9:10 a.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
There's obviously the issue of budgets. You said that you're assessing this issue with the catches. However, in the documents provided by the Library of Parliament, we're seeing an increasing shift to the east.
You therefore have less and less information about the catches. You said earlier that you take into consideration the fishermen's knowledge. However, if there's less and less of it and no work is being done in the lower north shore, how do you integrate the fishermen's knowledge into your scientific data?
You may have this information, but you may not use it. I want to know how you use the information and how much it's taken into account.
9:10 a.m.
Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
I'm from the Bedford Institute of Oceanography in Dartmouth and I'm responsible for stocks within the Scotia-Fundy region, the maritimes region, so I don't have all the details for the work within the Quebec region and the northern gulf. That said, I know there are ongoing collaborative projects between science and fishing organizations.
Herring is one of the good examples of that across a number of regions. We have ongoing collaborations for collection of information. We work closely with industry. As part of our science advice process, industry representatives are invited to our peer review meetings and are considered full participants. Any advice we provide has been undertaken through consensus peer review, which includes industry representation.
9:10 a.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
You said that you generally have enough information. However, I have a question regarding one of the graphs that you showed concerning division 4T. I can see a very large confidence interval starting in 2010 for the gulf area. I want to know why that interval has increased so much.
9:10 a.m.
Manager, Population Ecology Division, Maritimes Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
As I stated earlier, I'm a fish guy and I'm from the Scotia-Fundy region, so I'm not sure of the details related to snow crab within the gulf. I'm certainly happy to take that question back and pass it on to our experts from that region.
9:10 a.m.
Bloc
Marilène Gill Bloc Manicouagan, QC
I can frame the question in a more general way, without addressing division 4T in particular, because my question can apply to all areas.
Does a confidence interval mean that the stock assessment is less reliable? If so, is this the result of a lack of data for conducting an effective assessment?