Fisheries Committee on Oct. 7th, 2024

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. I want to go to the next question, but it seems that when it comes to 19,000 tonnes, is it safe to say...? What's the highest tonnage for a particular species? Is it redfish at the moment?

[Adam Burns]

Redfish is, off the top of my head. I wouldn't want to tell you that definitively, but certainly redfish is a much higher TAC, yes.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Right, and 19,000—you mentioned that you don't have the information in front of you—would be considered a rather large TAC in the context of other fisheries.

[Adam Burns]

I think that's safe to say.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay.

Mr. Burns, I understand that NAFO negotiations on the northern cod have just concluded. Can you tell this committee what sort of management measures are in place and what mechanisms are in place to prevent people from breaking the rules?

[Adam Burns]

In those negotiations, we had a few objectives.

The first and foremost was to defend the fact that this is a Canadian-managed stock, not a NAFO-managed stock. In doing that, we achieved a consensus decision whereby all NAFO contracting parties agreed to the Canadian rules being applied, even outside of Canada's exclusive zone. For example, a seasonal closure, which will also apply to the offshore inside Canadian waters from April 15 to June 30, is implemented in the NAFO zone.

Canadian gear requirements for cod, which had not previously been in place in other cod NAFO fisheries in 3M, are now available for use not just in 3L, but also now in 3M, which will present other fishing opportunities for Canadian interests in the NAFO zone. The Canadian minimum size for cod, which is 43 millimetres, has been implemented in this fishery in NAFO. Previously, it was 41 millimetres within the NAFO area.

We've also implemented a measure that any vessels that do not have an observer on board, if they are found to be in violation of any of the specific flanking measures for the 3L northern cod fishery, would need to immediately return to port for inspection, which is an unprecedented aspect of the measures in NAFO. There's no other fishery that has that level of requirement.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

That's excellent.

Can you explain to this committee and those watching the differences between offshore trawling in the seventies, eighties and nineties and the offshore trawling of today and what controls are in place that were not there decades ago to help regulate the fisheries such as cod?

[Adam Burns]

I'm certainly not an expert on what the rules were in the 1970s related to trawling, but what I can tell you is that in our current rules, there are at-sea observers that are deployed, there are strict gear requirements, and there are dockside monitoring and ongoing quota monitoring to ensure these fishing approaches don't result in quota overruns.

All of this is predicated on a very robust scientific basis for setting the total allowable catch, which is based on robust world-class monitoring to ensure the removals that are being authorized are sustainable, and then, as I say, all of the measures that are in place to ensure those sustainable levels are adhered to.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll now go to Madam Desbiens for six minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Naturally, I want to thank the witnesses, whose participation is always valuable to us.

The reason I insisted that Quebec be included in our discussion and reflection is that it was determined that northern cod and Gulf of St. Lawrence cod were species that intersected or intermingled in the waters around Blanc-Sablon. The reality is that the various directions the minister has taken recently, as well as future decisions on northern cod, will eventually—the day may come sooner than we think—have an effect on the cod stocks in the St. Lawrence River and the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Do you have any specific data on the possible consequences of the decision to restore the fishery when we are in a cautious zone? Could this have an impact on the cod stocks that we want to restore in the river and in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?

[Adam Burns]

I'm going to ask Mr. Vigneault to answer that question.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault, Director General, Ecosystem Science Directorate, Department of Fisheries and Oceans]

Thank you for the question.

We believe the impact will be limited. As you mentioned, there's some level of interaction between the northern cod stock in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and off the coast of Newfoundland and Labrador. However, according to all the scientific studies that have been done, these interactions are very limited. They don't affect the stock assessments and the management measures. These two processes are entirely separate.

The situation is somewhat different for subdivision 3Ps cod stock, located south of Newfoundland. In this case, it is a known stock with considerable migration between the various adjacent regions, including Newfoundland and Labrador. Research, tagging and genetics are under way to better quantify the interactions between these two stocks.

In summary, we don't believe that the reopening of the cod fishery will have an impact on the northern gulf, but it could have an impact on southern Newfoundland, where scientific work is under way.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So in terms of what we're studying, the impact is limited or unlikely. In the south, though, work is still under way.

You mentioned genetics. Are we talking about DNA to track the fish species?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

That's right. Fish stocks are defined by a mix of biology and management. In biology, we look at the DNA profile of fish to determine subpopulations. We also take their behaviour into account. You can track cod through scientific surveys, but also through cod tagging throughout the offshore area. Sometimes they're implants with detectors that are inserted into cod in offshore areas to record fish passages. The fish can also be fitted with metal tags. Because we know where they were first caught and tagged, once they're recovered, that gives us an idea of the fish redistribution.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That way, you can get a sense of their range.

According to your recent measurements, has the status of the fish population in the Gulf of St. Lawrence improved in a tangible and encouraging way?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

The two Gulf of St. Lawrence stocks, northern and southern, are in the critical zone. So there's no directed commercial fishery in that area. Unfortunately, the most recent surveys show that in both cases the levels are still very low, even continuing to decline.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So we can conclude from that that the main predator, the seal, is still at it. If the cod stock isn't recovering after so many years, it is certainly because the cod are being attacked by predators other than fishers.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

Scientific assessments take these things into consideration, and that's the conclusion we reached for the southern gulf. After overfishing efforts that have reduced the stock's recovery capacity, grey seals seem to be the ones currently preventing the stock from recovering.

That's not the case in the northern gulf, however. Assessments are under way. Grey seals are much less present in this area. Analysis to date suggests that predation isn't the primary factor, and that environmental factors are more to blame. In the northern gulf, the cod population is doing very poorly, and current theories are that the phenomenon is related to mortality and environmental effects more so than predation.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Given the difficulties the resource is experiencing, isn't it hazardous at this time to allow or increase offshore fisheries of any kind?

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

It would certainly be hazardous for the northern and southern gulf stocks.

The situation is different for the stock off the coast of Newfoundland, however. That stock has recovered over the years. Based on our new assessments and knowledge, this stock is now in the cautious zone. In this case, the practice is to allow a fishery with incremental measures, so that it increases as the stock recovers.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

So the fact that fishing is allowed, even though it's commercial, is an indicator of the state of the stocks.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

The scientific opinions we provide determine whether the stock is in the critical zone or in the cautious zone. That's the scientific component.

Then, when a stock is in the cautious zone, we have to decide whether we can reopen the fishery or increase fishing levels.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

That's the department's responsibility.

[Dr. Bernard Vigneault]

That is the management component. It is generally accompanied by a set of rules, and stock growth within the cautious zone needs to be taken into consideration.