Fisheries Committee on Nov. 6th, 2025

[Daniel J. Fleck]

Thank you for the question.

First, I would say that I was moved by his comments. That's a very sad situation that he's found himself in.

I think it's a little of both. I believe that the act does need some amendments to really strengthen that owner-operator and fleet separation policy—the law...the act—because when policy and regulations are made pursuant to the act, they can be massaged and manipulated on a case-by-case basis, and things happen outside of that. The Fisheries Act is here. A regulation can't break an act, and a policy can't break a regulation, so we need it entrenched in the act, right off the bat, so nothing can impede that.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Further to that, is this something that you also see where you are? Can you relate to his testimony?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

Absolutely, I can relate to it. I will say that there are many times when people have complained, and people have become fatigued and tired from complaining because they haven't seen action. After a while, people stop complaining. It's been identified for years, though. It's not hard to see or to find in the local communities, if you know what you're looking for.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Thank you, I appreciate that.

You also highlighted the value of harvester knowledge. I hear this a lot in my riding. People who are working on the water don't get an opportunity to provide valuable insight. Can you give an example and describe what the real impacts of that are please?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

An example right now might be the mackerel fishery. People on the water are seeing mackerel. They're seeing large concentrations, large volumes and schools of mackerel in places, and by the time DFO gets their data from the captains and everything else, it'll probably be 10 years before DFO science will say that the captains were right in what they saw.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Mr. Hutchings, I'm wondering if you can also speak to this. You can use the redfish example, if you'd like, or any other instances where you felt that the voices of the people who have investments or the people who are going out on the water every day were being lost. Maybe give some real-life examples of that.

[Keith Hutchings]

That's an interesting question. The prior witness spoke to corporate concentration, owner and fleet separation. All of those are fundamental to the industry—I guess a shared industry—in ensuring that all can make a living and that it is shared through the various regions of our country, certainly in coastal and northern communities. It's extremely important. Whether it's in the act or in regulation, there's enough clarity, I think, in the industry as to what needs to be done and how it needs to be done through enforcement. I think that's a key component of it.

Specifically in regard to redfish and those sorts of things, at CCFI, we're engaged with harvesters as well. We get that upfront knowledge, in terms of reacting to challenges that exist, whether it's related to technology or science, to basically answer those questions and to move the industry on. That local knowledge is just so important in terms of resource management, and from the innovation and technology perspective as well.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

Just to expand on that, what's the impact to both the industry and the coastal communities when their voices are lost and they don't have meaningful input? What do you see? What are we at risk of there?

[Keith Hutchings]

I think we're risking the economic and social well-being of those communities where there are opportunities.

Fundamentally, the department looks at the sustainability of the resource. One of the things I highlighted in my witness statement was that we maximize the economic opportunity, and that's not selling out one on the other. For those communities where there are opportunities to expand fisheries, where there are opportunities for greater utilization of fish, we need to ensure that we're able to do that and create greater wealth for those communities and those participants.

[Carol Anstey, Conservative, Long Range Mountains, NL]

I live in a community that's a little bit removed from the coastal communities. Would you agree that it's not just a direct impact to the coastal communities, but potentially also to the other areas outside that feed into the economics of these coastal communities? Would you agree that there's an indirect impact as well when these enterprises are being negatively impacted?

[Keith Hutchings]

Certainly, yes. That's a great point and a good correction to what I said. Yes, it's certainly not isolated to rural or coastal communities. They're the centres of commerce and activity that those harvesters and others participating in industry draw supplies and gear and all those other things from. They could be coming from an urban centre.

Yes, the picture is all in terms of the economics and the return to Newfoundland and Labrador and other centres throughout Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

That's time, Ms. Anstey.

With that, we're going to move to Mr. d'Entremont for six minutes.

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

First of all, I'll start by thanking Mr. Gunn for those comments. My commitment to Acadie—Annapolis has not been diminished, and I hope he has more of those great quotes, because I stand by each and every one of them.

Listen, I'm always honoured to be a partner with Brazil Rock and the associations to help the Nova Scotia lobster fishery in the challenges we've had since 2020 and to continue to make things better.

Mr. Fleck, when we come to the owner-operator situation, we've had some pretty interesting testimony here today. What examples could you provide to us to show how prevalent owner-operator or fleet separation challenges are?

We know that in the licensing or in the transfer of the licence, DFO has the opportunity to review those documents and to approve or not approve them. Is that maybe where part of the challenge is? There has to be a point where DFO has its hands on a trust agreement and either says “yea” or “nay”. What kinds of examples do you have, and how does that process work?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

Thank you, but it's definitely not a yes-or-no answer.

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

I know.

[Daniel J. Fleck]

If a person or an officer or someone attended a wharf and said, “There's Mr. d'Entremont's boat”, they could then go to the ship registry under Transport Canada. It's open source, so anybody can do it. They punch in the name of the boat, and then it comes up that it's owned by a corporation. Then they go in and they look further in the registry of joint stocks and see who the officers are of that corporation or business, and they see it. It's right there. That's been done many, many times and provided to DFO.

I started my career with DFO as a fishery guardian in Chéticamp, Nova Scotia, in 1984. I finished my career in the spring of 2020 in Barrington Passage, Nova Scotia. Before I retired, there were times when we were directed to provide and compile lists of vessels and people who might be in violation of the fleet owner-operator policy, because lobster is supposed to be “the captain owns it—the captain runs it”.

It was all provided to the area director at the time, David Whorely, and he provided it to regional headquarters. After a couple of months, we asked where this stuff was, and the answer we got back was, “Oh, it was lost.”

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

We have a lot of work to do here.

[Daniel J. Fleck]

It's not.... You know, the dedicated officers of southwest Nova Scotia or the Maritimes region and across the country are smart people and they're well trained. You tell them what you want to enforce and they can do it. It doesn't take them long to figure out what it is, but we have a problem from senior management and political interference, in that the licence conditions they put before them make it impossible.

We've heard before of different departments or different agencies operating in silos and not speaking or communicating with each other. I believe that exists within DFO as well. Resource management doesn't speak with conservation and protection or with aboriginal fisheries, the indigenous fisheries. By the time it comes down to an officer's hands, it's “What can we do with this?”

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

Before I go to another question, I want to follow up a little on this one.

What change to the act would enshrine the policy or the issue you'd like to see?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

I'd like to see the entrenchment of the fleet separation and owner-operator policy, defining that the licences are protected and must be owned by those people, by that captain. He must operate it; he cannot lease it out.

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

Okay.

There are a couple of the other issues you brought forward. You know, you talked about having fisher knowledge involved in DFO science. Does the DFO consult with fishing organizations or fishers, or does it just come talk to you to tell you what it's going to do?

[Daniel J. Fleck]

I think we run into the thing through the advisory.... To me, the advisory process at the lobster meetings is fractured. It used to be that they had a certain amount of time—a day or two—where everything could be researched and thoroughly discussed and where common ground could be come to. Now, basically, there's no advice exchanged. The industry is told, “This is what you're going to have to do, and this is why.”

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

Okay.

I'll ask Mr. Hutchings something on the same run.

Does the DFO consult with industry in a proper manner?

[Keith Hutchings]

Well, in our experience, the organization I lead, we have interaction with the DFO, but we always hear from industry and various industry players that they're not getting a consultation, whether it's on resource management, fish catch rates or what they're seeing on the water as opposed to what DFO science is telling them. I mean, that's always a challenge, and we continue to hear that from those who prosecute the fishery.

[Chris d'Entremont, Liberal, Acadie—Annapolis, NS]

I have a quick final question.

When it comes to the one policy issue that I haven't had a briefing on, that would be the corporate communal licensing. Maybe you can speak.... What does that actually mean? What did the presentation give you?