Fisheries Committee on Jan. 28th, 2026

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Would you say that the protected areas or any marine conservation and protection that is done in conjunction with users and harvesters is more effective than those that are simply imposed by someone else's standards?

[Melanie Giffin]

I would say yes, 100%.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Mr. MacPherson.

[Ian MacPherson]

I concur. Yes.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Edinger, how much of the ocean has been mapped out identifying what needs to be protected?

[Dr. Evan Edinger]

That's a really tricky question. When you asked how much of the ocean has been mapped, there's a global effort to map 30% of the world's oceans by.... I forget what year it is, but we're not there. That's including a lot of the deep sea. When we ask what needs to be protected, it depends on what level of protection you're looking at. I don't think I can answer that question precisely.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Arnold.

Mr. Cormier, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all our witnesses for being here.

Mr. MacPherson, it's good to see you back. You're here so often that I think we have to give you a loyalty card or something.

Your association probably participates in a lot of those meetings about marine protected areas. What are your impressions so far of the way that those meetings, consultations or requests for submissions or whatever are going right now?

[Ian MacPherson]

It's been quite a while since I've been involved with one. After I speak, maybe Melanie can add something.

There hasn't been, to my recollection, a lot in the last few years. Certainly, we can speak to a feeling that there needs to be a more expansive and intensive process, taking into consideration a lot more of what harvesters have observed and the impacts.

If you'll allow me, Serge, I'd like to highlight socio-economics and how that is a huge gap. I would like to tell the committee that industry has instigated two socio-economic studies. One has just been completed by Dr. Ian Lee at Carleton, and we'll be sharing that and have shared that with some colleagues and MPs. Also, Melanie has just stepped down as president of the Canadian Lobster Research Network, and they're doing an extensive one that maybe she could speak to a bit more.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do you think fishermen, when they hear the words “marine protected area,” feel like it means they will not be able to go fish lobster or crab again, for example, in that area when they hear there's going to be a marine protected area in a particular zone?

[Ian MacPherson]

Certainly if they haven't been involved in the initial discussions and talked about potential areas and things like that, I think that would be a normal default position that a lot of us would have. As our previous witness defined and as Melanie just mentioned, there is a difference between a refuge and an MPA, but if people don't know those nuances, they're going to think they're all going to be no-take zones.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

For example, you were saying something about the scallop and drags in certain parts at a certain depth. Let's say there was to be a marine protected area in your LFA. If it were made a marine protected area with no dragging but you still would be able to fish lobster, that would probably be acceptable for your industry. Is that right?

[Ian MacPherson]

Mel, correct me if I'm wrong, but that's the situation we have out in Cable Head. Is that correct?

[Melanie Giffin]

Yes, that's exactly the situation we have in our scallop buffer zones, where scallop fishing is not permitted but lobster fishing is.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Okay.

I'm going to go to you, Ms. Giffin.

We've talked about marine protected areas, protecting a certain area, making sure that we protect the bottom of the ocean or the whole ecosystem in this area, but let me just step out of this a bit. Some of the resources—for example, the shrimp industry—are collapsing right now. There are almost no shrimp in a certain area in the gulf. For years, industry told DFO official scientists that there was a problem, that they were seeing too many redfish, and I think we see the result here. The only factor is not that the shrimp are gone.

At the end of the day, of course we want to have marine protected areas, but do you think it's easy to blame ministers and politicians of different stripes? Sometimes DFO officials, scientists from DFO, do not listen enough to the industry, to the fishers on the water. Do you feel that there's a lack of communication that can be beneficial to making sure that stocks are rebounding? What can we do to make sure that younger generations will be able to keep fishing? Do you feel that way?

[Melanie Giffin]

Yes, we see it on the water quite often, and we hear it from harvesters.

On the science side, I can say that we've experienced what seems to be a few-year delay in what harvesters see on the water versus what comes out in DFO science. It's not a lack of science; it's just that, for some reason, it seems to be lagging behind what's being seen on the water.

I can give you another example of that taking place now. We have a lot of concerns about striped bass consuming lobster larvae. It's been brought up for years now by harvesters, and so far, DFO science has not come along to the same point. There are a few different examples I can give, but yes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you very much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier.

Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I'm going to start my questions with you, Mr. Woodley.

In your opening remarks, you said that Canada's oceans weren't in great shape. What makes you say that?

[Stephen Woodley]

There are many things to point to. We know that about a third of fish stocks are in trouble in Canada. We know that a third do not have sufficient data to make good stock assessments.

I'm from the east coast, and I've fished on the east coast. I remember when I was a kid, and the run of salmon up the Saint John River was memorable. You could get Saint John River salmon at the markets. It was what we grew up on. That's all gone. I lived in Newfoundland. I worked with fishers in Newfoundland, and they couldn't even catch enough capelin to make bait for lobster. There are lots of reasons. I could on and on. I think you know them as well.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

What are the causes of this decline in marine biomass stocks?

[Stephen Woodley]

There are many causes. Certainly, as has been pointed out already, climate change and damming rivers are problems. Fish farms are a problem in some places. Certainly, if you look at the IPBES report, the international biodiversity assessment, overharvest is the single biggest problem in the oceans.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

How would marine protected areas help us better protect the biomass?

[Stephen Woodley]

They can meet the objectives of protecting rare ecosystems like coral reefs. They can protect representative ecosystems. Fisheries management is an experiment. When we do an experiment, we say that we're going to catch this many tonnes and this will be the outcome. There are lots of people with biology training in this room. They know you don't do an experimental design without a benchmark. MPAs can provide that benchmark. We really don't have it in Canada now to use as part of the design of our fisheries management systems. There are lots of issues.