Fisheries Committee on Jan. 28th, 2026

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Is it your opinion, then, that better fisheries management would not adequately protect the biomass?

[Stephen Woodley]

The point I would try to make is we're not just managing fisheries; we're managing oceans. That's a really important consideration.

I would suggest, for this committee, that fisheries management is absolutely critical. Protecting jobs is absolutely critical, but the oceans keep us alive. Every second breath we take is from the ocean. They benefit us all. We have to think about the benefits for people, not only the fishing community. By saying that, I don't mean to disenfranchise the fishing community at all.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

What effect do you think marine protected areas will have?

[Stephen Woodley]

Much is made of the difference between oceans and terrestrial ecosystems. They're both ecosystems. We know that protected areas can be highly effective in protecting biodiversity on land and on sea. I think that having marine protected areas as part of an approach to ocean management is essential. It's not just a nice to have; it's an essential part of fisheries management. I would disagree fundamentally with Dr. Hilborn, from earlier, on this.

If we could do fisheries management perfectly, there may be a different argument, but we are not. In this country we're not and we're certainly not globally. The oceans are in deep trouble.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

How do you think we should determine what can be done in marine protected areas? In other words, what type of fishing should be allowed, and what type should be banned?

[Stephen Woodley]

You're asking a very complicated question. It's a good question, but it's a very complicated one and I can't give you a short answer to it. Certainly, we can have different....

The IUCN has six categories of protected areas and four governance types. That gives you a box of 24 different solution sets that you can use. All would be called marine protected areas. When you add OECMs—I think everybody knows that term—into the mix, then you have a lot of different solution sets for ocean conservation within that 30%.

Can fishing occur in some of that? Yes, certainly, but the science is very clear that if we want these to be most effective, then no-take is most effective. There's no question about that. There's lots of room to find solutions that benefit nature and people.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Area-specific bans would be a possible solution, would they not?

[Stephen Woodley]

That's certainly a possibility. If we look at the zoning we have now that's being employed by the different implementers of marine protected areas in Canada, I think there's room for massive improvement in the way we think about zoning.

Again, it has to tie back to what the goals of the site are. I see good work going on in that area in Canada.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Deschênes.

That completes the first round.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to depart and hand it over to the very able Vice-Chair Arnold.

Next, we're going to Mr. Small for five minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Welcome to the committee. Thank you for coming, to all of the witnesses.

Dr. Woodley, have you heard talk of the open standards for conservation?

[Stephen Woodley]

I am aware of them.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

How important of a role do these standards play in the establishment of conservation areas?

[Stephen Woodley]

They play almost no role, really.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

None?

[Stephen Woodley]

They're developed by an NGO. They're there for people to use. Some people are picking them up and other people are not. They're not a mainstream part of most conservation of land and sea.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Do you respect their point of view?

[Stephen Woodley]

I think they have a good point of view, yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Here's what they have to say on their website:

The biodiversity conservation community is tackling large, complex, and urgent environmental problems where the stakes are high. However, we don’t have a fully functional system to assess the effectiveness of our actions. Without more rigorous measurement of effectiveness and disciplined recording of our efforts, we cannot know or demonstrate that we are achieving desired results.

We had officials from the Department of the Environment, DFO and Parks Canada here a couple of months ago. They all said that the number one objective in establishing these marine protected areas was to reduce carbon in the atmosphere.

Have you done measurements of carbon on the seabed, throughout the ocean and in all of Canadian waters yet?

[Stephen Woodley]

I can't speak for them, but I would be astonished, quite frankly, if they said the number one objective was to reduce carbon in marine protected areas. You may want to go back and check that—

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

It's on the record.

[Stephen Woodley]

—because marine protected areas are set up to protect biodiversity.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Sir, are you disputing their testimony—

[Stephen Woodley]

No, I'm not.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

—and if they said that?

[Stephen Woodley]

I'm not disputing their testimony.