Evidence of meeting #22 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mpas.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

McIsaac  Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association
Barron  President, Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association
Barkley  President, Little Campbell Hatchery Society
Carr  Professor, University of California, Santa Cruz, As an Individual
MacDonald  University of British Columbia, As an Individual
Sullivan  Executive Director, Newfoundland Aquaculture Industry Association

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 22 of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territories of the Algonquin Anishinabe people and to express gratitude that we're able to do the important work of this committee on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to continue its study of marine and coastal protections.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would like to ask all in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, but particularly the interpreters. You'll also notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

I'd also like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.

To access interpretation services, simply insert your earpiece and select the appropriate channel.

I remind you that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Members in the room, please raise your hand if you wish to speak.

With that, I'd like to welcome our witnesses here today.

We have with us Jim McIsaac, executive director, BC Shrimp Trawlers' Association; Michael Barron, president, Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association; and Diana Barkley, president, Little Campbell Hatchery Society.

With that, we'll go to opening remarks for five minutes or less, starting with Jim McIsaac.

Jim McIsaac Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Thank you, Chair and members of the committee, for the invitation to speak here today.

The BC Shrimp Trawlers' Association is made up of small-scale, independent trawl fishermen. We run either a beam trawl or an otter trawl, and all are under 65 feet, and fitted with bycatch reduction grates and LED lights to further reduce bycatch. We are by far the cleanest shrimp fishery on the planet.

Canada's 2023 MPA standards exclude all trawl, including shrimp, from new MPAs. These standards treat beam, butterfly and otter trawl nets just like super trawlers that can hold BC Place in its mouth.

Shrimp is one of Canada's favourite seafoods. If we do not get our wild shrimp from our ecosystems, we will get it farmed from much less pristine ecosystems.

I've spent tens of thousands of hours in fisheries planning, ocean planning and marine protected area planning processes, and these are vastly different processes. I have worked to protect harvesters, fisheries, marine ecosystems and our coastal communities. Over the last 10 years, the number of B.C. harvesters has declined 25%, the processing jobs have declined 35% and our rural coastal economy continues to spiral down.

MPAs do not stop the major threats to our ocean. Pollution, climate change, acidification, oil spills, illegal, unregulated, unreported fishing and invasive species do not stop at the boundaries of MPAs. MPAs cannot hide from global drivers.

The Great Barrier Reef in Australia, perhaps the best global example of an MPA, was created when oil drilling and coral mining threatened to destroy the reef's $9-billion tourism, fisheries and aquaculture economy. After 50 years of protection, the reef is not entirely dead. It is in a state of crisis, facing severe, rapid decline and pushing the reef towards a critical tipping point. Drawing a line around the reef is not saving this ecosystem. MPAs will not solve the complex reconciliation issues we face either, but they sure can exacerbate them.

Canada is no longer a country where citizens are equal before the law. We now treat knowledge as sacred and based on race, not integrity. Our development of MPAs over the last 10 years exposes this new paradigm.

I was appointed to the Haida Gwaii marine advisory committee in 2011. The council of Haida Nation co-manages several MPAs with Canada. One village chief told our advisory that the CHN does not have the authority to close fishing areas without village approval. As a result, when Canada enters into agreements with the CHN on MPAs, Haida villages are exempt. There are hundreds of other race-based closures on the west coast, including most IPCAs and all 164 RCAs. Don't get me wrong, there should be way more than 50 fishermen in Haida Gwaii, at least 500 with associated full fisheries economy.

For the last 35 years, Canada has focused on protecting corporate access on our coast, not harvester, first nation or coastal community access, but that is another story.

To manage the NSB MPA network, $335 million was granted to a private first nations entity, including $200 million from Canada. In the NSB network action plan, indigenous fisheries are exempt. DFO refused to grant the same exemption to small-scale fishermen, many who have operated in the area for five generations. Local non-indigenous communities were not invited to co-manage the area nor were they given funding to protect their well-being linked to the area.

Twenty-five years ago, most B.C. harvesters supported MPAs, but they do not today. Initially, in creating MPAs, fishermen gave freely of their ecosystem knowledge only to be lied to and deceived by bureaucrats, have their fisheries data shared without consent and have their knowledge used against them. Hard fought-for agreements have been changed at the last minute, some after they were announced. In at least one case, closures were announced after fisheries plans were approved with harvesters on the water. Small-scale harvesters have been fined heavily for fishing in new MPAs. Most had no idea that the areas they had fished for decades were now closed.

MPAs do have a place in our marine ecosystem, but they are not the silver bullet to protect biodiversity. Montreal's CBD has 23 targets, not just one. MPAs must have measurable objectives and targets, and closures must apply to all users. MPA planning should be done inside of larger ocean planning processes or fisheries planning processes.

Thank you for your attention. Hopefully this has been useful.

I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much.

With that, we're now going to go to Michael Barron for five minutes or less.

Michael Barron President, Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association

Good afternoon, honourable Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today.

My name is Michael Barron, and I am president of the Cape Breton Fish Harvesters Association. I'm here not as an academic or a policy expert but as a commercial fisherman from Nova Scotia, someone whose livelihood and whose community's future depends on healthy oceans and fair, workable management.

No one in the fishing industry is opposed to conservation. In fact, our livelihoods depend on it; if the resource fails, so do we. Since 2015, however, marine coastal protection in Canada has changed rapidly. While some of that change has been necessary, much of it has left fishers wondering whether conservation is being measured in ways that actually reflect what is happening on the water.

In 2015, less than 1% of Canada's marine waters were protected. Since then, DFO moved quickly to meet an international target of 10% by 2020, but by 2019 that was actually exceeded at 13.8%.

On the water, the picture is more complicated. From a fisherman's perspective, success has been measured mostly by how many square kilometres are drawn on a map, not whether fish stocks are rebuilding, habitats are improving or fishing communities are more secure. The gap between policy and reality is where a lot of frustration comes from.

In Nova Scotia, there are two areas that stand out: St. Anns Bank and the Eastern Canyons.

St. Anns Bank has supported commercial fishing for generations. It's a working area, not a pristine one, but productive, and it matters to the people who fish there. Since its designation as a conservation area, fishers have been left with uncertainty. Some activities are still allowed but others aren't, and many of us still don't know what success looks like in DFO's eyes. We don't know what baseline is being used, what's being monitored or what would trigger changes—either more restrictions or fewer. From where we sit, it feels like we're being asked to accept limits without being shown clear evidence of what those limits are achieving.

The Eastern Canyons marine refuge raised similar concerns. No one disputes the importance of protecting deep-sea corals. Fishers understand sensitive habitat better than most, but this refuge also highlights a bigger issue: Very large areas are being counted towards conservation targets while much of the activity continues as before. At the same time, there's little public reporting to show whether the habitat is actually improving.

The question for fishers becomes simple: Are these measures about real protection or are they about meeting international targets as quickly as possible?

For commercial fishers, especially in the inshore owner-operator fleets, these designations have real consequences. We deal with increasing spatial restrictions, uncertainty about future access and layers of regulation that keep piling up. Meanwhile, consultation often feels like it happens after decisions are mostly made.

We're told what's coming, not asked what will work. That erodes trust, and without trust, conservation becomes harder, not easier.

Enforcement and monitoring are other concerns. We're told areas are protected, but many of us don't see consistent monitoring or enforcement on the water. There is limited baseline data and even less long-term reporting that shows whether these areas are healthier today than they were before protection. Fishers are being asked to shoulder responsibility without being shown results.

Climate change is also changing everything we know. Fish are moving, water temperatures are rising and productivity is shifting, yet most protected areas have fixed boundaries that don't move with the ecosystem. From a fishing perspective, that raises a real concern that we're locking in management decisions that won't make sense 10 to 20 years from now.

Finally, there's an issue with coordination. Offshore protection is federal, but what happens along the coast—habitat loss, shoreline development, pollution—often undermines what we are trying to protect. Fishers see that disconnect clearly, even when policy doesn't.

In closing, fishers want healthy oceans—we always have—but conservation has to be more than lines on a map. It has to be measured by real ecological results, clear rules, meaningful involvement of people who work on the water and management that can adapt as conditions change. Right now, too many fishers feel that marine protection is something being done to us, not with us. If DFO wants conservation to succeed in places like Nova Scotia, that needs to change.

Thank you for listening. I look forward to your questions.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Mr. Barron.

We're going to conclude now with opening remarks from Diana Barkley for five minutes.

Diana Barkley President, Little Campbell Hatchery Society

Good afternoon.

I would like to start by thanking Fisheries and Oceans for 40-plus years of not only financial support, but for the hands-on DFO involvement that has been invaluable to our hatchery.

Today, I thought I'd give you a bit of a background on our organization, tell you about the work we do and the importance of Canada's marine protection efforts, and I'd like to share with you our ambitious plans going forward.

Salmon conservation, stock assessment, and community stewardship and public outreach have been key objectives since our organization was founded in 1957. Our 29-acre property, which we own, is located on the traditional unceded territory of the Coast Salish people, the traditional territory of the Semiahmoo First Nation. We have a long-standing relationship with the Semiahmoo First Nation.

We've been a partner of the DFO salmonid enhancement program since 1982. Our hatchery is committed to protecting and enhancing salmon habitat and salmonid populations in our area of the Little Campbell River watershed in British Columbia.

Our dedicated volunteers monitor our fish fence daily and during spawning season are there from dawn till dusk. As an example, one Sunday this past November, the coho decided it was time and more than 1,300 came through the fence that day. It caught us a bit by surprise, but our hard-working volunteers were up to the task. This year was a record year and we counted 4,475 coho and 1,134 chinook.

We enumerate all returning fish, distinguishing species, wild from hatchery, male from female, and we share all that data with DFO. We collect broodstock, taking eggs and managing incubation. This year our egg take was over 103,000. After rearing, we put them back into the Little Campbell River. Each year we release approximately 100,000 salmon. Over 40-plus years we estimate our small hatchery has raised and released some four million salmon.

Community hatcheries like ours complement marine protection efforts by rebuilding vulnerable stocks that depend on healthy estuaries and coastal waters, particularly for populations such as the threatened Boundary Bay chinook. The success of our freshwater enhancement work depends heavily on what happens once these fish reach the estuary and nearshore marine environment, where habitat quality, water conditions and bycatch management play a major role in survival.

Protecting the Little Campbell estuary and Boundary Bay nearshore habitats is crucial to ensuring that the fish we release have a meaningful chance to survive and return as adults. Education is also a primary focus for us. We provide eyed eggs every fall for the salmonids in the classroom program and we conduct tours for the students and seniors, as well as the public at large. Last year alone our volunteers conducted over 80 school tours. More than 4,000 children, parents and teachers learned about the important work we do. Over the decades, we have provided tours to hundreds of thousands of people.

Our 100% volunteer-operated hatchery is funded through DFO, the Pacific Salmon Foundation, our club memberships, rental revenues from a banquet hall and fundraisers such as our annual Salmon Sessions outdoor music festival.

Before I close, I want to share with you our ambitious plans to replace our 46-year-old hatchery building and to double our enhancement breeding program. The current building represents health and safety concerns due to water damage caused by frequent floods and the aging hatchery infrastructure is at an ever-increasing risk of failure. With climate change and increased urban development in the Little Campbell watershed, these catastrophic flood events are expected to become more frequent and severe. A new hatchery building built on higher ground will help make our programs resilient and adaptable to these changes.

In 2022, we applied for the BC salmon restoration and innovation fund, but we were much too early in our planning process. The SRIF program has been most successful on many levels, and we urge you to consider bringing back this valuable fund to further support salmon recovery. Ultimately, our objective is to continue our salmon enhancement and stock assessment efforts to ensure the ongoing health of coho, chinook and steelhead populations in the Little Campbell River. With 100% of our coho and chinook being adipose fin clipped, the fish raised in our hatchery contribute to a robust sports fishery on the Little Campbell River, as well as recreational fisheries in the marine approach areas.

Thank you for inviting me to speak today. I'm happy to answer any questions.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Ms. Barkley.

With that, we're going to begin our opening round of questions, the six-minute round, starting with Mr. Arnold.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

Thank you to all three witnesses for your opening remarks.

I'm going to start off with Mr. McIsaac.

So far in this study we've heard some interesting testimony. Some have stated that when it comes to coastal marine protections and fisheries, we can have both. It doesn't have to be a binary choice of one or the other. Conservation and fisheries can coexist.

What is your take on this?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

I certainly think they have to coexist. If we want to have fisheries, we can't wipe out stocks from the ecosystem and intend to have an economy in the future down the road.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

Should the conservation protection areas coexist with fisheries or can we have conservation and fisheries at the same time?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

If you're talking about conservation areas, with our fisheries on our coasts, we've had protected areas for decades or more—for 50 or 100 years. The mainland inlets where sablefish spawn have been off-limits for the sablefish fishery for decades. It's not written on any map or anything like that, but it's there. We do all different kinds of protected areas inside of fisheries planning.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

Would you say there was a balance, possibly, with the protected areas that had been established and the fisheries? Is that balance changing, in your take on this?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

The ecological management of our coast is certainly changing. This is new. We didn't do marine protected areas for ecosystem objectives 20 years ago. Fifteen years ago, less than 1% of our coast was in MPAs. Now 35% of our coast is in MPAs with these ecological targets. That's vastly different than targets for fisheries.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

Previous witnesses for the study had varying testimony on the notion of the spillover effects of protected areas. What's your take on the so-called spillover effect under the previous protected areas that we had or if we go to this 30 by 30 plan that the Liberals are proposing?

4:25 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

Under fisheries management, the structure that we use for our fisheries is biomass modelling. We use that to develop harvest control rules across space and time. There are no current mechanisms to incorporate spatial closures or spatial protections into those models. That means that the areas outside don't benefit from spillover. The quota is determined prior to that.

As a matter of fact, in the pinch species realm, we get punished. An example of that is something like Frederick Island and yelloweye. It's a rockfish conservation area and has been one for 24 years or something like that. The yelloweye is pushing the fishery out rather than further. It's making a de facto larger closed area. It's not changing the quota for yelloweye.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

In the northern shelf bioregion and that network of MPAs, there are conditions and prohibitions that have been established for fisheries. I've heard that fisheries exemptions have also been established for the NSB network.

Is that correct? Can you shed some light on that for us?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

There is a set of exemptions in the network action plan, which is one that's been approved. That's the one I referenced. We asked for an exemption for small-scale, independent harvesters in the area. That wasn't granted, but the exemption that exists in there is for indigenous harvest and traditional use, including practices for FSC—food, social and ceremonial—and will continue in accordance with legal rights and obligations. Indigenous harvest is allowed in the NSB.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

That's even though it's recognized as a protected area.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

What trend do you see in the amount of foreign control of fisheries in B.C.? Is that compounding what's happening with these tentative closure areas?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

I don't know how to associate those two.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

I'm just wondering if the overall industry is declining.

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

Oh, there's no doubt about that. The number of fishermen is declining. The number of processing jobs is declining. The economy in rural coastal communities is declining.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC

Is that a combination of multiple effects?

4:30 p.m.

Executive Director, BC Shrimp Trawlers’ Association

Jim McIsaac

Yes, there are definitely multiple effects, but I would say that the largest impact over the last 10 years was going from 1% of our coast in MPAs to 35% in MPAs.