Evidence of meeting #24 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you witnesses for joining us.
I have a fairly general question.
Mr. Sproul, it sounds to me like you're saying fishers are not being consulted. How could the process be improved? Do you have any other specific proposal to make to ensure the fishing industry is actually consulted in the development of marine and coastal protected areas?
The other witnesses can also answer the question if they wish.
President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association
I think the best way to rebuild the process is, first and foremost, to have ENGOs and other people who clearly do not have a direct stake in the conservation of our oceans removed from those tables.
It's also to bring more transparency to the interactions between researchers at Atlantic Canadian and other Canadian universities who are doing the research on which the government's proposals are founded. We need more transparency on the interactions among them, the ENGOs and the government to rebuild trust.
As well, press reset on the MPA development process and ask the industry for areas that we feel are economically important to be excluded and for areas that we think are ecologically important to be included, because neither of those ever has happened yet.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Does anybody else want to add something? It doesn't look like it. I'll move on to my next question, then.
Mr. Sproul, you also talked about lobbyists in the process. You say they were met before you took part in the consultations, and that they employed former public servants from the Trudeau years, among others. Naturally, that promotes distrust. Have you been able to verify if this complies with the Canadian government's ethics rules?
President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association
That would be outside of my area of expertise, but what I'd say is even more important are the perceptions of coastal communities in the fishing industry. I think it's a reasonable expectation for us to be able to see a transparent process about the interactions among all of them.
What's also important is that, if an ENGO intends to lobby the Canadian government to influence Canadian government policy, especially when it comes to things like transborder fishery stocks, we should rightly expect those ENGOs to have to publicly declare where the money is coming from that is funding their activities and the direction they're taking. Those seem to be reasonable safeguards to build a better process in the future.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Thank you.
My question was also for the other witnesses: Do you think the fishing industry is being consulted enough and is the industry's point of view being taken into consideration?
Commercial Harvester, As an Individual
With respect to the northern shelf bioregion in particular, in 2019, our industry came together at our own personal expense. It was a considerable effort in B.C. organized by our marine planning team. Numbers of us—I think there were up to 700 participants, if memory serves me correctly—went back and forth to Nanaimo all winter long. We sat in a room full of other fishermen with their charts out, and we talked about the areas we could lose and the areas we had to keep. We developed a plan that would have met the target for conservation while mitigating the impacts on our industry. When we submitted it at the end of the day, none of that was gazetted, and it was all turfed out the window. We were told by the northern shelf bioregion partners that they were just going to do what they saw fit.
That's how industry is perceived. That's what's going on in B.C. There's not a lot of collaboration. You go to the meetings, and they tell you how it's going to be. That's what we have in B.C.
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
What you're saying is that there isn't really any consultation, that you organize meetings yourself, and that your point of view isn't taken into consideration. Is that correct?
Bloc
Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC
Okay.
Mr. Sproul, you've already talked about this, but usually when there are consultations, does the department publish a report outlining your recommendations, even if it doesn't take them into consideration?
President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association
I attend management meetings at places like the maritimes region lobster advisory committee, and frequently, when the minutes come back, I see our comments and our key concerns excluded or somewhat edited by managers within the department. I would also point out that these managers are within that same small group of academics from specific universities within Atlantic Canada who circulate through management, ENGOs and government.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you, Mr. Beaulieu.
That concludes the first round of questions.
We're going to start the second round of questioning with Mr. Arnold for five minutes.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Before you start my timer, Mr. Chair, I'd like to welcome our colleague Mr. Moore from Fundy Royal to the committee today.
I'd also like to ask if the clerk has received a response from the minister on our request for her to appear on this study.
Liberal
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Okay, thank you. I'll start my time then.
Mr. Mavin, do you see one group of Canadians receiving more than others from some of the decisions with the way this MPA process has been working so far?
Commercial Harvester, As an Individual
I very definitely do. When the commercial fishing industry makes suggestions or tries to contribute, our suggestions are minimized tremendously. There's been a definite agenda of listening to the voices that the government of the day chooses to listen to. I don't know how to elaborate further than that.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Would the impact of these proposed MPAs in some of the most productive fishing areas be similar to, say, creating a national park that covers some of our most productive agricultural areas, such as the blueberry fields or cranberry bogs in the lower Fraser?
Commercial Harvester, As an Individual
One of the areas that's scheduled to be a marine protected area is the body of water off Frederick Island on the west coast of Haida Gwaii.
I've never fished in the Maritimes, but that area off Frederick Island is easily the most fish-rich area in B.C. and, I would bet, likely in Canada. Everything that we fish is there. There's halibut, rockfish and lingcod. The salmon migrate by there in the millions. It's extremely critical to commercial fishing and it's one of the areas they've chosen to turn into a marine protected area. If we lose that, the volume of fish that would be displaced and the earnings that would be displaced would be profound.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Would that require you to spend more time at sea, be more at risk from weather and burn more fuel, etc., to meet the same catch and incomes that you have now? I'm not talking just about you, but about the fleet, basically.
Commercial Harvester, As an Individual
I don't think we could replace the catch if we lost that area. You could burn as much fuel as you wanted and fish as hard as you could elsewhere and you would not come close to catching the harvest that we get in that area.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Mr. Sproul, would you like to comment on how much time would have to be spent if the most productive areas were to close?
President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association
I would point out that the extreme effects on our conservation because of the previous government's direction in fisheries have moved our membership to a point of barely being profitable. If they're forced to go further to try to catch lobster or fish, our businesses won't be profitable. Fishermen and our industry have been brought to their knees by the application of ideology in fisheries management.
We need to come back to the application of sound science that's transparent and that can be trusted by everybody who relies on healthy fisheries. The truth is that there's a reason that some of these grounds have been fished for generations. The species that we harvest are very abundant there. The idea that we can just go somewhere else and conduct our activity is ridiculous. Again, it points to the lack of consultation during the early stage of the process.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Mr. Kierce, you were saying that you're the only fish plant operating now in that area of the coast and that you felt that the bands in your area hadn't been consulted. Has DFO made an attempt to put everyone in the same room to talk about these proposals so that everyone could hear each other's sides of this or has it been isolated consultations with different user groups?