Evidence of meeting #24 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Mavin  Commercial Harvester, As an Individual
Sproul  President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association
Kierce  General Manager, Coast Tsimshian Fish Plant Ltd
Archambault  Scientitic Director of the ArcticNet Network, As an Individual
Rigg  Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
Nickerson  Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC

Can you convey to people why the next generation isn't getting involved in fishing, why they don't see those opportunities and instead see uncertainty? Perhaps you could mention how the northern shelf bioregion, this network of underwater parks, or MPAs, is contributing to that.

11:50 a.m.

Commercial Harvester, As an Individual

Doug Mavin

The network of underwater parks is forcing concentration in our fisheries. Our fishing grounds have become more congested. In our halibut fishery, which starts in March every year, our fishery is down to a number of spots, and it's a steady stream of boats rotating over those spots. If you're third in line, your productivity is much less than that of the guy who is first in line.

Our herring fishery, for example, is not managed to science anymore. It's managed to politics. Our salmon fishery is not managed to science anymore. It's managed to politics. There are decisions made about who gets to fish and when that are outside of scientific rules and are more to do with political goals.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC

Does it seem to you in general that policy-making at DFO is being driven by politics and activists as opposed to science and common sense?

11:50 a.m.

Commercial Harvester, As an Individual

Doug Mavin

Absolutely, it is.

11:50 a.m.

Conservative

Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC

Does it frustrate you when you see that these foreign-funded or government-funded activist groups seem to be driving the decision-making, even though they don't have a stake in the industry? It's not their jobs on the line. It's not their way of life on the line. It's fishermen like you who have fished for generations who are suffering the consequences, both the real-world closures and all of the uncertainty that this is creating.

11:55 a.m.

Commercial Harvester, As an Individual

Doug Mavin

I'm frustrated beyond words. It's extremely frustrating that the Canadian government would pander to this.

The Liberal Party gave us Brian Tobin at one time. In the 40-plus years that I've been a fisherman, he's the only good fisheries minister that I've seen come from the Liberal Party. What has followed has been a succession of oceans ministers, who focus on the ocean and not the fisheries. It would be nice to have a fisheries minister again.

11:55 a.m.

Conservative

Aaron Gunn Conservative North Island—Powell River, BC

Thank you, Mr. Mavin.

Mr. Kierce, we keep hearing over and over again from this government that first nations along the coast are in support of these massive MPA spatial closures in the northern shelf bioregion, but upon closer inspection, it seems that is not the case. In fact, some of the first nations that are most experienced with fishing and most invested in it are actually opposed, including Lax Kw'alaams and We Wai Kai.

Can you talk about why the Lax Kw'alaams First Nation is opposed to these large closures? If they go ahead, what will be the real-world consequences for your community?

11:55 a.m.

General Manager, Coast Tsimshian Fish Plant Ltd

Glenn Kierce

For one thing, it's about the 17 signatories they have in place. Currently, they have FRRAs in place—reconciliation framework agreements. Those are the 17 signatories.

We don't have one in place. We're quite concerned, because we're a fishing village. This has the potential to have huge cultural and social impacts on the community. If they continue on this path forward, a substantial reduction in fishing will bring significant social harm to the community and will further disconnect the people of Lax Kw'alaams from their heritage and culture.

Like I mentioned in my testimony, in 2012, we had a trawl footprint that was implemented. It's been doing very well. We have a bycatch of coral and sponges. It's about 4.5 tonnes annually. If you look back over the catch history, there's still 96% or 98% remaining of that every year. These trawl footprints that we have in place seem to be doing a great job.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you.

I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to jump in here.

We're going to end with Mr. Cormier.

You have four minutes.

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Thank you.

Mr. Sproul, I'm going to go back to you.

I know you said that you were not happy with the past government, and you named the former prime minister. A new government is in place and a new Prime Minister is in place. A lot of groups who came to this committee or who we met with seem to be a little bit happier with the way DFO is making some decisions right now—maybe not all of them, but some of them.

For example, in your area on the Bay of Fundy, a lot more arrests are being made. When it comes to illegal fisheries, thousands of lobsters were seized and put back in the water.

Do you actually see a little bit of a difference in your area when it comes to enforcing the law?

11:55 a.m.

President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association

Colin Sproul

Thank you for the question, Mr. Chair.

What I would say in response to Mr. Cormier is that's not the basis for the meeting today, but since he asked, I'd be happy to answer.

What I see is similar—

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

Just a minute—before you respond, I think it fits right into the meeting, because the creation of MPAs protects the resources that you are fishing as an industry and as a group.

Can you please just answer my question? I'll come back to you after that.

11:55 a.m.

President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association

Colin Sproul

Firstly, I haven't seen any MPAs proposed for St. Marys Bay or St. Peters Bay, which continue to be fished on an industrial scale out of season.

While I appreciate that there have been some increases in enforcement in our area, they still seem to be only to generate the appearance of enforcement in the media. If the minister and the department intended to end the illegal fisheries in our communities, they would go to places like St. Peters Canal and Saulnierville harbour and arrest the people engaged in the illegal activity and seize the boats, and maybe they would drag the sunken, oil-spewing boats out of the harbour that were left there again last winter.

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

I think we've all seen what was done in terms of arrests for illegal fishing. That was a start. I think we want to see more enforcement done.

Coming back to MPAs, Mr. Sproul, my first question was about the map that was proposed to your group when you went into these meetings. What will you want to see done differently in terms of the creation of those areas? How do you want the government to proceed with that going forward?

Noon

President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association

Colin Sproul

I think the path forward is clear.

First, the government needs to conduct socio-economic studies of the fishery to see what the proposed impacts would be on coastal communities. Then we need a new engagement process that puts harvesters first and gives us the ability to have a veto over certain areas that we know we can't remain economically viable without. Then we should see the science that's being used to justify the areas that are being proposed by the government so we can understand that it's based on conservation, not ideology. I think that's the way forward.

Noon

Liberal

Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB

In your opinion, do you think MPAs can be good for an industry like lobster, for example?

Noon

President, Bay of Fundy Inshore Fishermen's Association

Colin Sproul

I think MPAs have tremendous value in the developing world, in places where there are no protections for the ocean at all. That was a lot of the reason for the development at the United Nations.

We didn't have representatives of the industry at those tables. We had ENGOs at those tables, saying that the Canadian industry is terrible from an environmental sustainability viewpoint, when they should have been saying that every square mile of our oceans in Canada has an incredible level of protection when compared to the developing world.

I think you first need to have that lens on how you look at this and recognize that the benefits of MPAs to Canadian sustainability will never be as great as they are in the developing world, where there are no protections at all.

Noon

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier. That's going to end our first panel.

I'd like to thank all of our witnesses for being here today in person and by video conference. Again, thank you for your flexibility in rescheduling from our prior time.

I want to mention that your testimony is going to be very helpful as we put together the report and recommendations to government that will flow from that as well.

You're welcome to stay in the room to watch our second panel, but at this point we're going to briefly suspend while we welcome our new witnesses.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

I call the meeting back to order.

Welcome back.

I want to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses.

First, I would like to thank you for your understanding when the committee meetings were cancelled on February 11, and for reorganizing your schedules to be here today.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those of you who are participating by video conference, which is everybody, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

If you're participating through the Zoom application and would like interpretation, at the bottom of your screen, you can choose floor, English or French.

As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

With that, I'd like to welcome our witnesses.

From the ArcticNet Network, we have Mr. Philippe Archambault, scientific director.

We also have James Nickerson and Catherine Rigg, directors and owners of Atlas Ocean Tours.

We'll begin with opening remarks from the witnesses. You will each have five minutes or less for your presentation.

Mr. Archambault, you have the floor.

Philippe Archambault Scientitic Director of the ArcticNet Network, As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Ladies and gentlemen, my name is Philippe Archambault. I am a full professor at Université Laval and the Canada Research Chair in biodiversity and the behaviour of transforming marine ecosystems. I'm also scientific director of the Canadian ArcticNet network, one of the world's largest Arctic research networks. In all of these positions, I work directly with fishers' associations in the St. Lawrence and the Arctic, as well as with local communities.

Marine protected areas have a direct impact on coastal communities, especially those that depend on fisheries and resources. That said, it is essential to remember that, outside commercial fisheries, the central role of fisheries in food security, culture and the continuity of traditional knowledge in many indigenous communities in the Arctic, as well as on the Pacific and Atlantic coasts.

The stability of commercial fisheries as a livelihood depends directly on the state of marine ecosystems. International and Canadian scientific synthesis shows that in highly protected areas, fish biomass can be two to five times higher than outside protected areas, and the average size of fish increases, which significantly enhances reproductive potential. This doesn't just benefit commercial markets; it also increases the availability of resources for communities who depend on the sea for their livelihood.

Let me give you a simple analogy. A marine protected area is like a bank account, a savings account. The spawning fish you protect and retain is your capital. The fish and juveniles that come out of the area and support the surrounding fisheries are your interest. If you consume all your capital, there's no more interest. I'm sure you'd rather live on your interest than eat into your capital.

The effectiveness evaluation of marine protected areas is based on scientific and regulatory methods recognized in Canada and around the world.

First is regulatory compliance. A protected area can only be effective if those rules are followed. It's very important.

Second is ecological monitoring. According to the International Union for Conservation of Nature recommendations, the assessment includes size of fish, abundance of species, biodiversity, state of sensitive habitats such as corals—species of fish will spawn on these corals—and habitat behaviour.

The Department of Fisheries and Oceans, in co-operation with universities, industries and research networks, uses scientific harvests for this monitoring, and there should be more of these harvests. Analysis published in scholarly journals, such as Science, shows significant increases in biomass, size and diversity in protected areas. These references serve as a comparative framework for our performance in Canadian waters.

Third, the adequacy of marine protected area objectives must be assessed. Under the Oceans Act, each area must have specific and consistent objectives.

Fourth, the assessment is based on adaptive management, meaning the possibility of adjusting limits or rules based on new scientific data. This principle is in line with Canada's commitments under the convention on biological diversity and the Kunming-Montreal global biodiversity framework, both of which focus on measurable effectiveness, not the area to be protected.

To summarize, the effectiveness of a marine protected area is measured not by size but by adherence to rules, improved ecological indicators, consistency of objectives and adaptability.

In closing, I'd like to talk about the Arctic.

In the Arctic, the challenges of marine protected areas go far beyond conservation. As everyone knows, geopolitical tensions in the Arctic have intensified. In this context, active governance of Arctic spaces is a core issue of sovereignty.

Marine protected areas fall directly under the United Nations convention on the law of the sea, which Canada has signed. This convention recognizes the sovereign rights of coastal states over their exclusive economic zone and continental shelf, while forcing members to protect and preserve the marine environment.

For example, the designation and active management of marine protected areas in the Arctic, such as Tuvaijuittuq or Tallurutiup Imanga, is an actual exercise of Canadian jurisdiction. They demonstrate an ability to regulate, monitor and manage these spaces in a rapidly changing strategic context.

Scientific monitoring associated with marine protected areas, whether it be biodiversity, seabed, ocean conditions or human activities, also contributes to operational knowledge of the territory for defence purposes. This knowledge supports civilian governance, but also indirectly strengthens maritime security and surveillance capacity in the north.

In an environment where international competition for access and influence in the Arctic has increased, marine protected areas are not just environmental tools: They're a structuring instrument of state presence, stability and international credibility.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Thank you very much.

I apologize, there were some technical issues with the sound.

We're going to continue with the opening remarks from Atlas Ocean Tours.

Ms. Rigg, you have the floor for five minutes.

Catherine Rigg Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours

Greetings from the west coast. My name is Catherine Rigg. I am before you today with my husband, James Nickerson. We are small business owners on Haida Gwaii, an archipelago located off the north coast of British Columbia.

Our primary [Technical difficulty—Editor] company offers kayak mother ship trips in Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve, National Marine Conservation Area Reserve and Haida Heritage Site. Gwaii Haanas is the southern third of Haida Gwaii and is only accessible by boat or [Technical difficulty—Editor] our boat, MV Atlas, to explore the nooks and crannies of the edge of the world, as we like to call it.

Our knowledge of Haida Gwaii is drawn, however, from a diversity of experience. As a small business in a remote [Technical difficulty—Editor] is that of a tourism operator, but we have also worked for DFO as prawn fisheries monitors, and we have held a contract to count salmon returns on the west coast for almost a decade. We've measured herring spawn and removed marine debris. We've worked with the Haida Nation and for the Haida Nation in different capacities—

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

I'm sorry, Ms. Rigg. I'm going to have to stop you very briefly here. We do have a point of order.

Mario Beaulieu Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

The interpretation isn't working. We're being told that the sound quality isn't good enough.

The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler

Ms. Rigg, I'm sorry. I'm afraid we're going to have to briefly suspend so that we can look into the technical issues we're facing. We're having some gaps in sound coming through, and that's creating issues for everybody, including for interpretation.