Evidence of meeting #24 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was industry.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Colleagues, we're back. Again, I apologize for the delay. We are experiencing some technical issues. We've been making some efforts to try to improve matters.
Ms. Rigg was just in the process of delivering her opening remarks. At this point, she has about three minutes and 40 seconds left.
If you'd like to pick up where you left off, we can go from there.
Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
All right, thank you. I will just pick up right where I was.
As I mentioned, we've worked with the Haida Nation. James was a commercial fisherman when I met him 25 years ago. While we now work in tourism, our business has been consistently augmented by other consulting and contracting work.
With that introduction, I will address the questions posed by the committee.
First, how have protection initiatives affected coastal communities?
You could ask 100 people on Haida Gwaii if the overall state of the ocean is improving, stable or declining, and 100 people would say that it is in decline. The causes may be debated, and the impacts are variable on different species and in different locations, but the reality is that the oceans are in trouble, and everybody knows it.
We've seen declines in local salmon runs, herring stocks and prawn populations, as a few examples. We also know that there's no quick fix to that problem, but of all the safe bets, reducing human impacts by establishing protected areas is one that people can wrap their heads around. Implementing marine protection allows ecosystems to regain balance and resilience. This is common sense. This, communities do understand.
In our view, Haida Gwaii communities are generally in favour of marine protection. We know it is not enough on its own, but if we can design protection in a way that makes sense, we will comply with marine zoning, accept restrictions and place that bet on our future.
Second, are the methods used to measure protection objectives effective?
In short, resourcing for ongoing monitoring is limited and insufficient. Many of these areas are remote, and data collection is challenging and expensive. Not everyone can do this work. DFO needs to provide sufficient resources and partner with local first nations to design and implement effective monitoring programs.
The final question is whether the government's objectives have been achieved.
Ecologically, these initiatives safeguard benthic and rearing habitats and protect species like rockfish and abalone. If we are all honest with ourselves, we know that to allow a place to sit, to rest, without the pressure of human extraction, has value unto itself.
Politically, marine protection balances the government's economic and conservation commitments. It can also build relationships with first nations and advance reconciliation. Socially, marine protection connects people to place. It builds trust and confidence that we're taking responsibility and being respectful of the place we live in.
Economically, marine protection is an investment in our future and in our children's future, both as tourism operators and as fisherman. Yes, objectives are slowly being achieved, but some take more time than others.
In closing, marine protection has been a long time coming and very slow to progress.
Let's take Gwaii Haanas, for example. The Haida Nation designated the marine and terrestrial area a Haida heritage site in 1985. Parks Canada followed with a national park reserve designation in 1993. Gwaii Haanas was finally designated a national marine conservation area reserve in 2010, but comprehensive marine zoning did not actually happen until 2018, 33 years after the original Haida designation, and 25 years after federal protection of the land.
Almost all of this work has been led by the Haida Nation with the support of Parks Canada and, only more recently, the involvement of DFO. The truth is that DFO has not led ocean conservation on the west coast. It has followed. It has followed first nations; it has followed the province; and it has followed coastal communities and residents.
Now, it is time to lead. It is time for DFO to deliver on the promise of responsible stewardship. It is time to work with first nations and coastal communities to move forward because the alternative, reversing course, will set us back decades.
We all, each and every one of us, have a collective duty to look after our marine front yard, not to make excuses about why we cannot do so.
Thank you. Haawa. We are now both available to answer any questions you may have.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much. That will conclude our opening remarks.
We're going to go right into the first round of questioning, a six-minute round with Mr. Arnold.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Mr. Chair, I'd like to remind the committee that we passed a motion for this study back in September. In that motion, the committee called for the minister to appear. We started this study on January 28, months after the motion was made. The minister appeared on short notice on February 2, on Bill C-15. She made time in her schedule on fairly short notice for that.
At that meeting, multiple members asked her about appearing. Three weeks later, the minister has not responded. Today, we heard that the clerk hasn't had a response. Today is meeting four out of six. Perhaps the parliamentary secretary could update the committee on whether he's had discussions with the minister about her appearance with this committee on this study.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I have not specifically asked her about coming here on this study, but I'll get an update for the next meeting.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Seeing as that hasn't happened, I'd like to move a motion that the committee direct the clerk to resend the committee's request for the minister to finally appear for our current study.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'll pause your time here.
A motion has been put on the floor. Are there any members who would like to speak to this motion that's been put forward?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Are we all in agreement?
(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you. We look forward to the response.
Ms. Rigg and Mr. Nickerson, I took a look at your website for your company and your ocean tours. I noticed that the tour prices are there. Could you describe what the prices are for your tours now and how you derive them?
Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
James, would you like to answer that?
James Nickerson Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
Yes. We operate eight-day, eight-night tours in the Gwaii Haanas National Park Reserve, National Marine Conservation Area Reserve and Haida Heritage Site. Essentially, it's the bottom third of Haida Gwaii. The tours are eight days and eight nights, and we offer kayaking and village site visitation with the Haida Gwaii watchmen program. They're essentially a mix of whatever guests really want to do during that time.
Our price for the 2026 season is $5,800 per person plus GST, and that's inclusive of all equipment and food and lodging while on board.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Does that include transportation to your site, or is that something clients book on their own? If they book it on their own, what would the estimated cost of that be?
Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
Clients book their own transportation to and from Haida Gwaii. During the summer months, at this point, a flight on Air Canada from Vancouver to Sandspit is roughly $1,200 return. They would also need accommodation on Haida Gwaii for a bare minimum of two nights, so they'd have one night on either end of our tour. That's at an absolute minimum.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Quickly adding in my head, I see about $6,000 for your tour, plus a few hundred dollars for a flight and then accommodation, and I don't imagine accommodation is very inexpensive on Haida Gwaii.
It's almost touching on $10,000 for an eight-day, eight-night tour. Would that be a rough estimate?
Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
Yes, that's a fair estimate. I would like to note that we're also the least expensive option currently operating large vessel tours in Gwaii Haanas. It can range from our price point to over $12,000 per person for an eight- or nine-day tour in Gwaii Haanas.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
It doesn't sound, to me, that it would be very accessible for an ordinary, average-income earning British Columbian, let alone for a Canadian coming from across the country. Where would your clientele be from? Would they be domestic or foreign clients?
Director and Owner, Atlas Ocean Tours
There are other tour operation options in Gwaii Haanas. They're much less of a time and money commitment. There's anything ranging from single day tours for $500 to $600 to two- to four-day tours in the $3,000 to $4,000 range with various operators.
For us, about 60% to 70% of our clients are from Canada—mostly from the provinces of Ontario, Alberta and B.C.—and the other roughly 30% of clients are predominantly American, with some Europeans.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
I'm trying to put this in the context of the current affordability crisis we're seeing in Canada. A lot of Canadians can't afford to put food on the table, yet these MPAs are potentially going to shut down our fishing industry. We've heard from many witnesses who say if the MPAs and coastal protections come in as proposed, it could be the end of a lot of these fisheries on the west coast.
It's a totally different playing field here. Average Canadians can't afford to put food on the table, yet we're going to shut an MPA down for someone who can afford a $10,000 trip. It just doesn't seem to add up.
Can you square that circle for me?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to jump in here.
If you'd like to provide an answer in writing, that would be much appreciated, but we are over time.
Mr. Cormier, you have six minutes, please.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Archambault, in your introduction, you talked about the impact on coastal communities when marine protected areas are created or when the department decides to allocate or reduce quotas.
You said a marine protected area is like a savings account for fishers, most of whom will be affected. At the end of the day, communities are worried. Fishers are concerned that they're not always consulted before these types of proposals are made.
Have you participated in some of those meetings on proposed marine protected areas in certain regions of Atlantic Canada or in your region, in Quebec?
Scientitic Director of the ArcticNet Network, As an Individual
Yes, I've participated in a number of assessments, including one by the Canadian Science Advisory Secretariat on marine protected areas, whether in the marine protected areas networks on the Atlantic coast or in the Arctic, between Greenland and Canada, including Inuit communities.
We're also working with fishing communities in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, especially the St. Lawrence Estuary, on fishing exclusion zones for lobster fishing, for example. We looked at the effectiveness of those areas and whether they're actually cost-effective for fishers. This is done in co-operation with fishers, academics and Fisheries and Oceans Canada. So the industry is fully involved.
We've shown that lobsters were larger and stronger in those areas, and that females had a lot more eggs. As I was saying, it's like a savings account. That's where I got that analogy. Because there's no fishing in those areas, there where we find large spawning lobsters and females with more eggs. Outside and around those areas, smaller lobsters are caught, because some of that [Technical difficulty—Editor] is removed.
I'm heavily involved in those assessments, and it seems to be working.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Why has virtually every group since the beginning of this study—I'm talking more within the industry itself—said they don't feel they're being really consulted or that they're not part of the proposed solutions?
They say that, unfortunately, if a marine protected area is defined, they won't be able to fish in that area. That said, we know fishing will probably be allowed in certain areas. As you just said, there may be some around that area as well.
Why are most stakeholders, especially those in the fishing industry or fishers, telling us that they're not involved in these discussions and that, most of the time, they find out after the fact?
Scientitic Director of the ArcticNet Network, As an Individual
I think associations are partly right: some assessments lack transparency. They must be more involved. I completely agree with them on that.
The Department of Fisheries and Oceans collects data, sometimes from fishers, research communities or non-governmental organizations, and that data should be shared. Canada needs an independent fisheries assessment agency, because if there's an election, as mentioned before, the new government might be more inclined to allocate higher quotas. Another year, it could be another fishery and the quota could be reduced. It could vary depending on policy.
I think the important thing is to have an independent organization and to further involve fishers' associations at every stage of the process. We do it for indigenous reconciliation, so I don't see why we couldn't involve the associations from the outset. That's where communication needs to improve. Everyone knows things are moving very quickly. Decisions need to be better informed and many more stakeholders need to be involved.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Some fishers' organizations and fishers were also asked about the loss of revenue related to potential marine protected areas. We see it in other sectors of the Canadian economy, such as the automotive, steel and aluminum sectors. When those sectors are significantly affected, we always have a safeguard plan or bailouts. Should we do the same thing if, as you said, we create marine protected areas in the gulf or in certain regions of Quebec?
Fishers will no longer be able to fish in these marine protected areas, which means they'll lose revenue. Do you think, along with these efforts to create marine protected areas, there should be some kind of compensation if these fishers' incomes drop in the first few years, that is, before these marine protected areas produce the desired results?
