Evidence of meeting #27 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fish.
A video is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Tell me about the influence the ENGOs have compared to the input that harvesters have with their on-the-water experience, which the Prime Minister said he was going to listen to when he campaigned in April. How's that going?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I'm afraid, Mr. Small, we are over time.
I'm sorry, Mr. DesRoches. If you'd like to provide a further answer in writing, the committee would appreciate that.
Conservative
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
At this point, I'm afraid we'll have to move on to Mr. Morrissey.
You'll have the floor for six minutes.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
Thank you, Chair.
The first question is for Mr. DesRoches. Anybody else can join in or opine on it.
Just briefly, can you go back to the common fishing practice you said you use and that you feel gives you a better assessment of the stock than when practices are dictated to you for research purposes?
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
The simplest way to put it is that whenever DFO wants to work with us to collect science, instead of asking us how we catch the fish, they come out with a procedure telling us how to fish, which usually doesn't line up with the traditional ways.
For example, in using the gillnets, we have nets adding up to 500 fathoms that we'll have behind the boat and drifting. This way, they work as a sea anchor, so that whenever you have a bit of wind pushing on your boat, it doesn't influence them and it'll keep your nets stretched out. That translates to approximately 32 nets. Whenever they had us do that based on their guidance, it was with only five nets, and the wind had a bigger influence because the nets weren't enough of a sea anchor. It just didn't work properly to yield any results. We fishermen have been doing it for years. We came up with the number of nets to make it work properly.
It's a science practice that from the beginning we know won't work. We tell them it won't work. There's nothing else we can do other than.... We don't want to just deny the science practice, so we go out and do it anyway, knowing that it's going to yield very negative results. It's been year after year now, I guess.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
You are giving testimony to this committee that the methods dictated to you by DFO are giving a distorted view of the stock. Is that what you're saying?
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
That's correct.
We believe that one of the examples is the methods of science, and the other one is using the handline. We think the data is well put together. It's just incorrect data, because it was obtained in a manner that's not accurate for common fishing practices.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
There was documentation provided to the committee earlier that said prior to the closure in 2022, the stock was declining in the years preceding that, when the catch rate did not match the allowable catch that was given. How would you account for the declining landings in mackerel going back over the years? My notes say that it was in 2016 going into 2022.
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
Personally, it was my best year in history. I just had to travel a bit more. A lot of other vessels weren't willing to travel. I feel that since I had to travel, it meant that the mackerel were not in the same areas—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
You would tell the committee that the effort put out by fishers was not as extensive. That would have an impact on the landings being lowered.
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
I would say that. As well, some of the areas that were chosen for sampling may not have reflected the actual area of the fish.
Liberal
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
I would say that with the actual landings, that effort may have played a role in it, for sure.
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
I take it that all three of you were listening to Professor Robert. His opening statement highlighted that, from his perspective, the mackerel stock in the gulf is in a critical area. Can you respond to Professor Robert's comments on that?
Professor Robert is not DFO. He's not fishing. He's appeared before the committee before, but he would provide a different perspective than what you would be given and it's important to.... How do you respond to that?
That is for anyone, if you can answer it.
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
I believe that with the data he was given, he would have no choice but to make that assumption or decision, but we believe that at the level of collecting the data, it was incorrect data. That's why he's getting a false sense of what the actual stock is. I believe as a fisherman that the data is just not true to what's actually in the waters and doesn't properly reflect the stock, due to the factors previously stated, such as the sampling and the effort.
Do you want to touch on that too, Mark?
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
You made the reference that when you were travelling the strait in the fall, you were seeing mackerel in an area where it was not normal for mackerel to be. You made that comment, but what do you define as a normal area and why would it be important if mackerel were where they would not normally be?
President, Prince County Fishermen's Association
It only goes to show that.... When fishermen were targeting mackerel in years past, they would go to where the herring spawn was. There wasn't the number of schools where we are that there are now, but there's no herring spawn where we're at, or very little of it, so the guys who are—
Liberal
Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE
How do you explain the importance of that to the committee—the fact that although there was no feeding source, there would still be, in your opinion, an abundance of mackerel?
President, Prince County Fishermen's Association
I think there was still a feeding source, and that would be lobster larvae, but that would probably indicate smaller mackerel. The larger mackerel are on top of the herring spawn, which is not where we are. The guys who are fishing tuna, like Lucas, will tell you that the amount of mackerel that's there, and the size of it, is crazy.
I want to tell you a crazy little story to go along with that. One of the guys was out fishing his bait quota for the day, which was 1,000 pounds or so. He said he didn't have time to finish his cup of tea before the crew had the 1,000 pounds on the boat, so obviously that wasn't a small amount of mackerel and obviously there was a lot of mackerel there.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Morrissey.
Mr. Simard, welcome to this committee.
You have six minutes.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I would really like to stop the clock to give our friends a few seconds to tune into the interpretation and the lovely voices of the female interpreters rather than my gravelly voice. It's nicer that way.
I will start with you, Mr. Robert.
One question strikes me as fundamental in the context of this study, and that is the need to bridge the gap between scientific knowledge and the observations made by fishermen.
You probably know better than me that science is not perfect. I am not sure how you reconcile the method you use and the observations presented earlier by Mr. Arsenault and Mr. DesRoches.
Is there a way for you to take this data into account to confirm or perhaps refute some of your positions? I would like you to tell us about this.
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Thank you very much for the question.
Egg abundance data is the data used to estimate the abundance of the Canadian contingent of the stock. It refers to females that lay eggs in a specific area, known as the spawning zone. By estimating the fertility of the females based on the number of eggs laid, we can calculate the number of fish present in the area. This is what allows us to estimate the spawning biomass of the stock.
Obviously, this does not allow us to assess the portion of the population that has not yet spawned. This type of method does not allow us to see all juvenile mackerel, which are not yet adults. What is most important, however, is still measuring the adult biomass, since it is this biomass that subsequently replenishes the stock.
This well-proven method was developed in Europe, is used in Canada, and enjoys broad scientific consensus.
As for sightings of large schools or shoals of mackerel, I have no doubt whatsoever about what the fishermen are saying. Mackerel is a species that moves in large schools, and there are still thousands of tons of mackerel in the Canadian contingent of the stock. If the mackerel are in one location anywhere in the gulf, you are sure to see a lot of them. It’s just that we are currently below the reference limit. According to the data we have from the egg survey, we are well below the reference limit. That is why we should avoid fishing the stock at this time.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
I completely understand.
However, last summer, I went lobster fishing in the Îles de la Madeleine with my colleague Alexis Deschênes and a fisherman, and there seemed to be a considerable gap between the data from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the fishermen’s practical knowledge, even though, at that time, they were not talking about mackerel but other types of bait. I believe they were talking about redfish. These people were drawing conclusions based on decades of experience and the knowledge of people they had worked with in the past who had spent their lives on the water.
I completely understand your scientific reasoning, which, I have no doubt, is quite compelling. However, is there any way to reconcile your findings with the findings that people are observing? For example, as part of the studies you conduct, have you ever gone out on a fishing trip to see what these people see, among other things?
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Thank you for the supplementary question.
As mentioned at the start, I am not part of the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, so I am not the one responsible for stock assessments. I do participate in them regularly, however. When I conduct my own research—which is often done in collaboration with Fisheries and Oceans Canada—I mostly use fishing industry vessels as research platforms.
A recent example is my research program on Atlantic halibut. We have collaborated with the Association des capitaines-propriétaires de la Gaspésie in Quebec, the Prince Edward Island Fishermen’s Association in Prince Edward Island, and the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union in Newfoundland and Labrador. My team goes out with the fishermen. We talk a lot with the fishermen. We certainly draw on their observations. That’s how we develop hypotheses.
I completely agree with you that fishermen’s knowledge must absolutely be taken into account in all matters related to research hypotheses, as well as in stock assessments. Fishing data is therefore also taken into account in stock assessments.