Evidence of meeting #27 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fish.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual
No, I've never been asked. I've just been told.
According to where science wants us to go, it would be great if they thought the fish would be in the same area at the same time every year. If fishing was that easy, everyone would be doing it, but that's just not the case.
Liberal
Paul Connors Liberal Avalon, NL
Mr. Robert, they're not asking the people participating in the fishery for advice on research. Is that a standard practice? Are they just told where to go to do the samples?
Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
That's a good question. Once a survey has been organized and planned, of course, there are precise stations where people need to go to fish.
The consultation should come ahead of any survey plan. Of course, working often with industry, I fully agree that a dialogue should exist between Fisheries and Oceans and industry in order to make sure that everybody is on the same page and that everybody buys into the surveys being conducted.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Connors.
That takes our panel to a close.
I want to thank the witnesses for taking the time to be here today and for providing testimony for the study we're working on right now. Your testimony is going to be very helpful as we finalize the report and, importantly, the recommendations to government.
With that, we're going to briefly suspend while we welcome our next panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I call this meeting back to order.
I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new witnesses, although I think they might have heard this from being in the audience.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking.
For interpretation, those in the room can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.
As well, all comments should be addressed through the chair.
I'd like to welcome our witnesses. We have Trevor Barlow, a fisherman.
We also have with us Ghislain Collin, president of Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie.
With that, we will go to opening statements of five minutes or less.
We will start with Mr. Barlow.
Trevor Barlow Fisherman, As an Individual
Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee, for inviting me here today to speak to you about the spring herring and the mackerel fisheries on the east coast of Canada, in particular the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence.
My name is Trevor Barlow. I'm a fisherman from the west end of Prince Edward Island. I've been a herring and mackerel fisherman since 1998. I've been the chair or co-chair of the small pelagic board since 1999, and I still am today. I have attended countless meetings over this time period for both fisheries.
I'd like to start today with the spring herring, if I may, and the differences between what we as fishermen are seeing on the water and DFO science data.
The spring herring, from what I can see by looking out and not being able to fish, have made a strong recovery and look very healthy, with more and more spawning events taking place every spring. I believe the reason that DFO science is not as optimistic as fishermen is a change they've made in their data collection over the years.
When the fishery was in decline and the total allowable catch was not being met, DFO science started looking for reasons to explain why they seemed to be overestimating the stock biomass. One thing they assumed was that their acoustic survey was potentially counting fish twice by following migratory patterns. The survey began in Chaleur Bay. Then it moved outside of the bay to the north shore of P.E.I. and up the west coast of Cape Breton. Now they only do the inside of Chaleur Bay and a little small area on the outside of Chaleur Bay.
We are managing a migratory stock based on a stationary snapshot. By shrinking the survey area, DFO has effectively created a coverage gap. If the fish aren't in that specific area during the survey window, the model assumes that they don't exist.
Also, before making this change, they did not fully assess how other management measures being enforced by DFO to the industry—such as no night fishing, changes to opening dates, and weekend closures to allow for recruitment—may have impacted the TAC results. When restrictions are placed on when to fish, catches will naturally drop. DFO interpreted this drop as a lack of fish, when in reality their own conservation efforts were contributing factors. Management measures resulting in conservation success should not be misread as fish decline or industry collapse.
In the absence of a commercial fishery, DFO is relying solely on data from their acoustic survey, which covers only a fraction of the historical grounds it once did, and it does not mirror what fishermen are seeing. Although DFO has begun using other data sources, they do not provide data on abundance. I believe all these factors have caused the stock biomass to be underestimated.
Moving on to the mackerel fishery, again, it seems there are differences between what we as fishermen are seeing and DFO science data. The fishery appears to have made a remarkable recovery—to what I would call historic levels within my career—but it's hard to know for sure when you're not allowed to fish. I believe it can support a commercial fishery, but I do not believe it can be the historic fishery that it once was when the reason for the collapse of the stock has not yet been addressed by DFO management.
In the early 2000s, DFO moved one goalpost and not the other by adding capacity to the fishery in Newfoundland, but did nothing to add more recruitment or protection of recruitment for the region. Prior to adding new tuck seine licences to the fishers of Newfoundland—which, I might add, was against the advice of DFO science at the time—our region was healthy and had never experienced any concern, decline or closure of the fishery, which indicates capacity mismanagement versus overfishing.
We never needed a total shutdown. We never had an overfishing problem. We had a management-induced capacity problem that the entire east coast has since been paying for. We needed responsible capacity limits, which we saw work for decades.
In conclusion, the total closure of these two fisheries is a blind management strategy. Zero fishing does not mean zero fish; it means zero data available to evaluate and make proper decisions around fishing. Without a commercial fishery, DFO is navigating in the dark. We need to reopen these commercial fisheries immediately, with responsible management measures in place.
Thank you for your time.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Barlow.
We'll now go to Mr. Collin for five minutes.
Ghislain Collin President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
This is my fourth appearance before the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans, and I am here to present the views of the group I represent regarding the herring and mackerel fisheries, two pelagic species mainly fished by our members.
The position of the Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie is clear: A regulated reopening of the commercial fishery would make it possible to achieve a number of things. First, it would allow for the collection of essential scientific data through mandatory catch reporting, using tools such as logbooks, hail-ins and dockside weighing. It would also allow fleets affected by the moratorium to resume their activities and create two to three jobs per vessel in the affected coastal regions. In addition, it would ensure a supply of quality bait for the fishers who depend on it. Finally, it would generate economic benefits in regions that have lost their pelagic fleets.
Unlike the commercial sector, fishing for bait has several significant limitations. First, this type of fishing provides little to no scientific data on herring and mackerel stocks. This lack of data makes it impossible to rigorously monitor the status of these resources, even though such monitoring is essential for sustainable and responsible management.
In addition, fishing for bait provides no tangible support to fishers who are facing difficulties as a result of the moratorium or restrictions in place. It also does not generate significant economic benefits for coastal regions, unlike an organized commercial fishery, which supports local jobs and economic activity.
Finally, it's important to note that, from a fiscal perspective, the tax reductions applicable to bait in Canada make purchasing bait more advantageous than investing in fishing activities to obtain it. This situation accentuates the economic limits of the bait fishery and reduces incentives for a structured exploitation of the resource.
Scientific data play a fundamental role in the rigorous assessment of the status of herring and mackerel stocks. Responsible management of fisheries resources depends on the ability to collect and analyze this information on an ongoing and reliable basis. In this regard, Quebec's pelagic fishers stand out for their active involvement in the collection of essential data, which is fully integrated into the operation of the commercial fishery.
In the context of a moratorium on herring or mackerel fishing, it is essential to recognize the repercussions suffered by the fleets concerned. Accordingly, when the fishery reopens or resumes operations, it seems legitimate for these fleets to be given priority in the allocation of commercial, exploratory, scientific or other licences. We are calling for priority access to emerging fisheries that are developing or will develop in the years to come. This approach is intended to support affected fishing communities while ensuring rigorous scientific monitoring and sustainable exploitation of the resource.
In conclusion, managing fisheries resources in coastal regions affected by moratoriums requires a structured approach based on sustainability and respect for local communities. A well-organized coastal commercial fishery that prioritizes the use of selective gear, such as gillnets and hooks, helps maintain the species while generating economic benefits for the regions concerned. Not only does this approach provide an environmentally responsible solution, it also contributes to the collection of scientific data essential for stock monitoring, thereby supporting responsible and sustainable resource development.
By adopting this approach, we help safeguard the future of the species while supporting fishers affected by the restrictions. The economic, environmental and scientific benefits of a structured fishery are inseparable from the long-term vitality of coastal communities and the effective management of marine resources.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Collin.
We'll start the first round of questioning with Mr. Small for six minutes.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My first question is for Mr. Barlow.
Mr. Barlow, on Monday we had Mr. Vigneault here, who is basically the director of DFO science. He told us about mature year classes of mackerel that are capable of reproducing. He almost painted a picture of them being non-existent and that the younger year classes were increasing somehow. I don't know where their parents are, but anyway....
What do you think of the picture the DFO has on the year-class distribution of mackerel?
Fisherman, As an Individual
I believe they're totally wrong. You're right; maybe there is a lot of immaculate conception out there in the mackerel fishery. I don't know; I'm not out there. However, I know I did the mackerel net test survey this spring, and it's a 10-net fishery. It doesn't work.
I tried to explain it last year at AMAC. I sat there with science and argued that the boats don't drift right with those 10 nets. The longest I had the nets in the water was three hours. I was supposed to be out there all night. I couldn't keep them in any more than three hours. I had them tangled around the boat and twisted more times.... I had more headaches than it was worth. I did get their samples for them, but not good ones.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
In the spring election, the Prime Minister made the comment—in fact, he made it in St. John's, Newfoundland—that basically the decision-making under his government would be based on what he was hearing at the wharves. Have you seen any of that in terms of mackerel?
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Do you expect to see it? Do you think this study could spur him on to keep his election promise?
Fisherman, As an Individual
I'll put it this way. The minister asked for the science to be redone this spring—and they're doing it now, I guess—and if they don't see improvements, they had better clean house, because the eggs were literally running out of the fish when I had done the sample.
Two years ago, in 2023, or maybe at the 2025 AMAC, we sat there and science said they couldn't find eggs, but they found lots of larvae—all kinds of larvae. That tells me it's in better shape. It's better to find the larvae than it is to find the eggs, but it means that if there aren't eggs, it doesn't go in the model.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
You've lived in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, the southern gulf, for all of your life. You've seen quite a few changes in the ecosystem. Water temperatures have changed and there are variations in migration.
Do you think that maybe DFO science should be looking everywhere except where they used to look?
Fisherman, As an Individual
I don't know for sure, but I know they went looking once. They've never done it consistently over the years to get the timing right. I don't know.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
I guess you can recall pretty well that when the closure of the mackerel fishery happened, certain ENGOs—which I get a letter from once in a while asking for a meeting—did victory laps around the mackerel closure. Now, at AMAC, what kind of influence are these ENGOs having compared to the influence of harvesters such as yourselves on the decision-making process?
Fisherman, As an Individual
As a fisherman in the southern gulf, I believe that among New Brunswick, P.E.I., maybe Nova Scotia and the southern part, we have five seats at the table. There are at least three NGOs, maybe more, that are sitting at those tables too, so they're getting pretty weighted.
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Do you think DFO science is listening more to the ENGOs than they are to you?
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Do you think there's any correlation between the fact that these ENGOs are basically U.S.-funded, that they're shutting down our mackerel fishery and that Americans jumped from 833 tonnes last year to almost 11,000 tonnes this year? Do you think that's money well spent by the Americans?
Fisherman, As an Individual
Well, it is certainly for them, and I raised that exact issue two weeks ago at AMAC. I brought it up that they should at least get the donor list, but they, you know....
Conservative
Clifford Small Conservative Central Newfoundland, NL
Monsieur Collin, I heard you talking about the importance of a commercial fishery, and I certainly agree with you. Which type of commercial gear would you think is best suited to getting an accurate representation for science of the year class distributions and whatnot?