Evidence of meeting #27 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fish.
A video is available from Parliament.
Fisherman, As an Individual
For sure. If we look at the last opening for spring herring, just in the southern gulf—and it's only a fraction of the mackerel fishery, but the quotas were similar—we had a 500-tonne TAC, and I believe our area was shut down in six or seven days. It was only, I'd say, 25 boats.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Would that indicate a high abundance of herring?
Fisherman, As an Individual
Well, it was definitely improving when they closed it.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Mr. Collin, I believe you said that you were never told the reasons for some of the decisions. Is it correct that harvesters were never told?
President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
That's correct.
Conservative
President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
For spring herring, we knew that the fishery was closed 48 hours before it was supposed to open. Despite all the expenses we incurred in the previous weeks, we were told rather cavalierly 48 hours before the fishery was expected to open.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Arnold.
Next we're going to Mr. Klassen for five minutes.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thanks to the witnesses for being here.
During this study, Mr. Barlow, we've heard reports from harvesters about large schools of mackerel in Canadian waters. From what you're seeing on the water, do these schools appear to consist mostly of young fish or mature fish that are capable of reproducing?
Fisherman, As an Individual
I see the schools of fish, but I have no way of telling you that, because I'm not allowed to fish them.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
In the last hour, Mr. Robert stated that the main factor in stock health assessment is the condition of the eggs.
Mr. Barlow, how would you assess the health of the stock?
Fisherman, As an Individual
In my opening statement, I said that the stock looks to be historic, at least in my fishing career since 1998.
I don't know whether any of you have heard tell of the 1999 year class. It used to be the big talk in the mackerel fishery. The 1999 year class was going to last for generations. Right now, it's bigger. I'd say there are probably two or maybe three year classes out there that are bigger than the 1999 year class.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
From what we're hearing here today, it feels like there's a bit of disconnect between the science information and the harvesters' information.
You stated that there needs to be more co-operation and that we need to work together. You stated in your opening statement that we need to reopen these fisheries with “responsible management”. I'm wondering if you can define “responsible management” and how that differs from how you're seeing the fisheries being managed right now.
Fisherman, As an Individual
If you're asking me about “responsible”, I think we're all responsible for the fishery. That is what I'm getting at when it comes to responsible management. There's no way science should be saying one thing but fishermen are seeing the opposite. There's absolutely no way that should happen. We have to correct that if we're going to have a responsible fishery. It has to be fixed somehow. I don't know how. Don't ask me. I'm not a scientist; I'm just a fisherman, but we shouldn't be miles apart. That has to be fixed. I don't know how we do it. I know there are smarter people than me who can figure that out.
It's the same thing with herring. We're miles apart. I just don't know how you fix it.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
I'll put the question to Mr. Collin, perhaps, then.
As Mr. Barlow said, he comes with a lot of information, but he's not a scientist, and there are obviously scientists who aren't harvesters. From your perspective, how should this management happen, and how could we align the management between harvesters and scientists a little more closely?
President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
First, the bait fishery should not be opened. That fishery goes against the science and provides no scientific data.
In a commercial fishery, fishers would still be able to go and catch their bait to put it in their cages. A commercial reopening to have data would start to be responsible.
Opening up the bait fishery isn't responsible. We don't even have control over the resource. There's no obligation to report, and that's ridiculous.
Liberal
Ernie Klassen Liberal South Surrey—White Rock, BC
Mr. Collin, during this study, we've heard reports from harvesters about large schools of mackerel. Mackerel, as you know, is a transboundary species that migrates between Canadian and U.S. waters. From your experience, can you explain whether there are different stocks of mackerel in Canada and in the U.S.?
President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
First of all, I listened to the testimony from the previous meeting this week. We heard scientists say that the United States has its stock and we have ours. However, we heard another scientist say earlier that stocks are mixing. I'm not a scientist, but I think fish move. So I would tend to believe that the United States is fishing Canada's fish stock. So we're protecting the fish only to let the United States harvest it.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Klassen.
Mr. Simard now has the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Mario Simard Bloc Jonquière, QC
Thank you very much.
You said two things that are very important, Mr. Collin.
I only have two and a half minutes, so we'll do this very quickly.
I'd like you to come back to the difference between bait fishing and commercial fishing. What I understand from your remarks is that fishing licences for bait really do nothing to help preserve the resource. They are really a problem. So you are suggesting that the commercial fishery be reopened and that volumes be better managed. I will let you respond.
You said another very interesting thing. Earlier, in a response Mr. Robert gave to one of my colleagues, he indicated that if people are seeing mackerel in Quebec, the Maritimes and all over the place, it's because the population is thriving. Earlier, in response to my colleague Mr. Deschênes, you said that people were realizing that there are indeed stocks. You're saying it, and people in the Maritimes are too. However, is anyone at the Department of Fisheries and Oceans able to gather this evidence?
So, first, I'd like to hear your response on the difference between bait fishing and commercial fishing. Then, I'd like you to tell me about the stocks you're able to observe.
President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie
I'll start with the stocks that I'm able to observe.
In Quebec, we can see that there are a lot of fish. That's what we're hearing from all fishers. I'm listening to the other witnesses here and I'm hearing fishers from Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia say that there's an abundance of the resource. We have a man here from Prince Edward Island who fully agrees with them. So I think we've just confirmed what Mr. Robert said earlier.
Second, on the difference between the bait fishery and the commercial fishery, the bait fishery doesn't bring anything. It's a fishery to help fishers get their bait. The only reason we were able to give was that bait is expensive. However, it's tax deductible. So, yes, we have to pay for the bait, but we recover that cost in the next tax year.
Moreover, there's no obligation to declare anything and fishers are not allowed to sell, give away or trade fish. So some people pick up their fish directly from their nets at sea and put them in their cages right away, without declaring. It's very hard to monitor the resource that way. On the other hand, in the commercial fishery, there are logbooks, an invitation to participate and dockside weighing. So the monitoring is much stricter and more effective.
As I told you earlier, if you try to get data from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans on last year's bait fishery, you'll see that it's very anemic.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Simard.
Given the time we have left, we can do two three-minute rounds, one for Mr. Hardy and one for the Liberals.
Mr. Hardy, the floor is yours for three minutes.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
I'm going to draw a parallel. There's a striped bass fishery In Montmorency—Charlevoix. Fishers are telling us the same thing. They can't believe how many fish they're seeing, they're catching a ton of it, but they don't have the right to keep it. They call the department, and they're told that what they're seeing is an illusion, that there aren't enough fish and that they shouldn't catch them.
Mr. Barlow, you say that stocks have reached historic levels. Do you consider the results of the scientists' equations to be consistent with what you're seeing? To your knowledge, are they using the right methods to determine whether there are enough fish?
Fisherman, As an Individual
No, I don't know what they're doing wrong or what's happening, but we're not aligned at all. With the fish out there and what science is saying, we're not even in the same boat, let alone on the same page.
Conservative
Gabriel Hardy Conservative Montmorency—Charlevoix, QC
My children are still in school, and in the math equations, if they start off wrong, the result won't be right at the end. At school, they give points for effort. In your case, however, for fishers, it's costing them their careers; they don't get any points for effort.
My question is for both of you. Do you think that scientists see your knowledge as science as well or, conversely, do you get the impression that scientists often see fishers as people who aren't worried about overfishing and depleting the resource, who just want to make money and therefore it isn't really worth listening to much of what they have to say?