Fisheries Committee on March 11th, 2026

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 27 of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

I want to start by acknowledging that we are gathered on the ancestral and unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people, and we express gratitude that we're doing the important work of this committee on lands they've stewarded since time immemorial.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the committee is meeting to continue its study of Atlantic mackerel and Atlantic herring fisheries.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format. Pursuant to the Standing Orders, members may attend in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

Before we continue, I would like to ask all of our in-person participants to consult the guidelines written on the table. These measures are in place to help prevent audio and feedback incidents and to protect the health and safety of all participants, but particularly the interpreters. You will notice a QR code on the card, which links to a short awareness video.

Pursuant to our routine motions, I would like to advise committee members that all witnesses appearing virtually today have successfully conducted the required technical testing.

I'll make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those who are participating by video conference, please click on the microphone icon to activate your mic and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

For interpretation, for those on Zoom, you have the choice, at the bottom of your screen, of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

For members in the room, if you wish to speak, please raise your hand. The clerk and I will do our best to preserve the speaking order. We thank you for your patience.

With that, I would like to welcome our witnesses today.

Appearing in person, we have Lucas DesRoches, a commercial mackerel fisherman.

We also welcome, by video conference, Dominique Robert, professor at the Université du Québec à Rimouski.

Also in person, from the Prince County Fishermen's Association, we have Mark Arsenault, president, and Nigel Buote, vice-president.

We're going to our opening statements for five minutes or less, starting with Lucas DesRoches.

[Lucas DesRoches, Commercial Mackerel Fisherman, As an Individual]

Good evening. My name is Lucas DesRoches. I'm a lobster, tuna, herring, halibut and mackerel fisherman from Prince Edward Island. I'd like to thank you for giving me the time to speak to some issues in the mackerel industry from a fisherman's standpoint.

As fishermen spending time on the water fishing multiple species—when I say “we”, I'm speaking of myself and other fishers all over the island—we can't help but notice and document the increase of schooling mackerel compared to previous years. We believe the stock is showing signs of recovery, even if this trend has not yet been fully reflected in the science due to multiple factors that I believe are giving negative data.

One factor would be the timing of these studies. For example, I think our egg surveys should be done maybe a little earlier and a little later than they are normally done, just to ensure that we're getting the data when the eggs are actually there.

Another factor would be fishing methods. Whenever we use drift nets in Prince Edward Island for mackerel, the common practice is about 32 nets, which is 500 fathoms. The reason we use that number is so that the boat will drift with the nets properly to keep everything strung out to maximize the chance of catching mackerel. However, when DFO instructed us to do samples, we only used five nets, and the wind played much more influence than the tide, making it not effective in catching mackerel at all. We believe that fixing minor issues like that could yield a lot better results in our sampling. We've voiced these concerns many times to the DFO, but these were ignored.

Another example is in using the handline method. Generally, we use a large weight with 36 hooks, and we lower it far down into the school of mackerel. It seems that the larger mackerel tend to be toward the bottom. However, whenever we did science with DFO, we only used six hooks and a very small weight, which left the hooks on top of the school of mackerel. The top of the school of mackerel seemed to generally be smaller mackerel, so we believe it gave poor accuracy with regard to representing the actual stock.

There should be more communication with industry when it comes to every discussion associated with mackerel. I've attended AMAC meetings, and it's very obvious that there's a disconnect between DFO science and fishermen.

Fishing mackerel for lobster bait is a very important part of fishing operations in P.E.I. Traditionally, we have relied more on catching our own bait that on having to purchase it from someone else who caught it from the same schools that we've had to watch swim by, since it's a migratory species. They sell it to us at prices that have been drastically inflated in recent years.

Access to the bait fishery is very important. When it comes to business planning and cost stability, I believe that moving forward there should be a “bait first” approach. In this “bait first” approach, I feel that halibut should also have some of the total allowable catch allocated in order to make the operation a bit more efficient for fishermen.

If a commercial fishery should be opened, I think attention should be placed on an individual quota, limiting large operations from repeating the harm they potentially have already caused to our industry and/or from creating a monopoly, which will only increase prices for fishermen.

My understanding as of late is that U.S. scientists have determined that it's safe to remove approximately 10,000 tonnes of mackerel this year. This is with the anticipation that Canadians will be fishing some, which will be subtracted from the total, and the remainder will be fished by them, so approximately 10,000 tonnes will be fished, whether or not we participate in the fishery. It would be a great chance to take our share of approximately 4,000 tonnes and have measures in place to collect the best science possible while fishing to obtain the most accurate representation of the stock, with the ability to catch our own bait, cutting the cost of operation for individual fishermen with bait licences.

That's pretty much all I have. I just want to mention that we're seeing a lot more mackerel schooling. We're seeing a lot more out there. We have a lot of fishermen, and a lot of them are seeing the mackerel schooling in multiple different areas simultaneously. We just feel that the science is not reflecting that. If we can work together a little better to get a more accurate representation of what's actually in the stock, it will be beneficial for the future.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

We will now hear from Professor Robert for five minutes.

[Dominique Robert, Professor, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual]

Thank you very much.

I thank the members of the Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans for inviting me to appear.

I am a professor and Canada research chair in fisheries ecology at the Université du Québec à Rimouski. For more than 20 years, my research has focused on understanding the factors responsible for recruitment variability in marine fish. In this regard, much of my research has focused on the ecology of fish during the first year of life, a period when mortality is high and variable. Over the years, my work has focused on several fish stocks in Atlantic Canada, including mackerel and southern Gulf of St. Lawrence herring.

Contrary to a number of forage species stocks in Canada, the assessment of mackerel and southern gulf herring stocks is based on reliable surveys, and these stocks can therefore be considered data-rich. In the case of mackerel, adult abundance is derived from egg abundance measured annually in the spawning area. For herring, abundance is primarily derived from an annual acoustic survey.

Because mackerel is a highly migratory species, it is essential to periodically verify whether a substantial proportion of spawning occurs outside the area covered by the egg survey. In recent years, the survey has been extended on an ad hoc basis to a number of adjacent areas, but a recently published synthesis has shown that the amount of spawning outside the gulf can be considered negligible in calculating the abundance index.

Unfortunately, despite strong restrictions on the commercial fishing of mackerel and southern gulf spring herring over the past several years, the state of these stocks remains in the critical zone, with biomass at approximately 30% of the limit reference point for both mackerel and spring herring. The critical state of these stocks is the result of high mortality among both adults and juveniles.

The high adult mortality rate is explained in part by the current high number of predators in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence. The main predators are grey seals, gannets and bluefin tuna—species whose populations have increased compared with past decades.

In addition to high mortality in adults, the low productivity of these stocks is also due to a decline in the survival rate of juveniles. This decline in recruitment has been traced to environmental conditions that had become unfavourable for larvae and juveniles. The rapid warming of the southern gulf has notably altered the development period of key zooplankton prey, which now develop earlier in the season, while the spawning period has not changed.

Finally, mackerel is a unique case because it is a transboundary stock, and the commercial fishery operating in the United States catches part of the Canadian contingent during its overwintering period. Following its most recent stock assessment, NOAA Fisheries concluded that the U.S. contingent was no longer overfished and decided to triple the Total Allowable Catch, or TAC, from 3,200 to 10,714 tonnes for this year.

Recent studies using otolith composition and genetic markers to distinguish Canadian and U.S. contingents suggest that between 20% and 80% of U.S. landings consist of fish from the Canadian contingent, depending on the year. However, the methodologies developed to date carry a high level of uncertainty. Even so, considering that only 10% to 20% of U.S. landings consist of fish from the Canadian contingent, the substantial increase in the U.S. TAC could still undermine Fisheries and Oceans Canada’s recovery plan.

Based on all of these considerations, I would like to make the following three recommendations.

First, keep fishing activities as low as possible until signs of recovery are observed in mackerel and southern gulf spring herring stocks.

Next, continue research aimed at accurately identifying the proportion of Canadian contingent mackerel in the U.S. fishery, which I believe is one of the greatest sources of uncertainty.

Finally, establish a joint stock assessment and management strategy with the United States to ensure that the state of both contingents is taken into account in all management decisions on both sides of the border.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much.

We will now hear from Mr. Arsenault for five minutes or less for opening remarks, please.

[Mark Arsenault, President, Prince County Fishermen's Association]

First of all, we want to say thank you to the committee for the invitation to speak here about issues that are very important to us and to the members we represent. It's an honour to be here, where so much of Canada's history was and continues to be made.

My name is Mark Arsenault. I'm the president of area 25 lobster fishery on the Prince Edward Island side of the zone. With me today is Nigel Buote. He is the vice-president.

Our fishery is somewhat unique. We are the only lobster fishery on the Canadian east coast operating in late summer and early fall, with our season running from mid-August to mid-October. We have approximately 220 members in our local. When the New Brunswick fleet is included, we have about 600 fishers operating in LFA 25.

We are here today to share our perspective from the water. We are not scientists or economists, but we spend a great deal of time at sea. Observation is an important part of understanding what is happening in our fisheries.

When I'm fishing lobster, I travel as far as 40 nautical miles each way, each day. For Nigel it's similar. Over the past few years, we have observed a noticeable increase in both the number and size of mackerel schools. On calm days, they seem to be endless. Even when mackerel are not visible at the surface, we can still tell they're there. Our electronic equipment shows them clearly. Seabirds, especially gannets and seagulls, are another strong indicator of fish. When gannets are diving, it usually means there are fish below, typically mackerel or herring.

It is also important to note that the areas we travel during our lobster season are not normally the areas where mackerel fishing occurs that time of the year. In late summer and early fall, mackerel tend to gather around herring spawn areas, which is where fishers who target mackerel usually operate.

Turning to the economics of it, we all know that there are only two ways to improve the bottom line in any business: increase your revenue or reduce your costs. We have fishers who have bait bills in excess of $50,000 for a two-month fishery. That is a significant number, particularly when we are seeing large amounts of potential bait in the water just under our feet. In small coastal communities, when fishers struggle financially, the effects ripple through the entire community. When our incomes drop, we spend less at local businesses and contribute less to the community. The impact is felt by everyone.

Another issue we'd like to raise is stock-sharing with the U.S.A. From a fisher's perspective, it is difficult to understand why American fleets will be able to harvest fish from the northern stock while Canadian fishers have no access. The U.S.A. has reportedly requested a total TAC of more than 10,000 tonnes for 2026. It is possible that a large portion of that could be coming from the northern stock. For fishers in Atlantic Canada, that raises an obvious question: Why are we in Canada unable to access a resource that is available, just to lose much of that resource to the Americans?

Finally, we'd like to speak a bit about spring herring. There has been a request submitted to open a small herring fishery in our area. Our observations suggest that the herring stock has increased significantly.

I am on the water throughout the spring, lobster fishing as a helper, as is Nigel. Along the same shorelines where we fish lobster, we regularly see large numbers of diving gannets. They seem to increase every year, as they have for the last number of years. This usually indicates schools of herring gathering to spawn. The economic benefit of allowing limited access to this resource would be similar to what we described with mackerel—a reduction in bait costs, of course.

We sincerely hope that this committee and the honourable minister will give serious consideration to these concerns. With rising fuel costs and increases in operating expenses, access to a sustainable bait fishery would make a meaningful difference for many fishers, their families and the communities that depend on them. We are simply asking for the opportunity to fish sustainably for the resources we see almost daily. No one has a bigger interest in protecting the fishery than those whose livelihoods depend on it.

In closing, I would like again to thank the committee for the invitation to speak here today. It's been an honour.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Arsenault.

With that, we're going to begin our first round of questions, starting with Mr. Small for six minutes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question will be for Mr. Arsenault.

I'm looking at the 2026 season. I'm looking at projections for fuel prices and the uncertainty with the U.S. market.

What impact would it have on your enterprise if you were able to catch all of your bait yourself versus buying it?

[Mark Arsenault]

As I stated, a lot of guys are in the $50,000 range. I'm not very far off from that. The catch total would be a bit unrealistic, I suppose, but we could cut our bait bill in half easily.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

In the last mackerel report, which was published in the winter of 2023, there was a recommendation for Canada to match a quota equivalent to what the U.S. is catching. Over the last couple of years, Canada has caught 440 metric tons of mackerel for bait. In the same time, the United States harvested 15,000 metric tons. What do you think of that?

[Mark Arsenault]

It's not good. That is what I think about it.

As fall fishers, we didn't get a crack at the bait fishery at all, because the first part was gone long before we started. The second part only started after we started the lobster fishery. It was during the first part of the lobster fishery, when we were really busy with the lobster, so we didn't have time. Most people didn't land their mackerel in the fall fishery.

For us, it's totally inaccurate. It's just no good.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Do you have any thoughts on why the spring opening lasts for several weeks and the late summer, early fall opening for bait fishery goes for less than 48 hours? Do you have any thoughts to share on why that's happening this way?

[Mark Arsenault]

In the spring, most of the boats are for fish and lobster. Some of them participate. Maybe they get a couple of pans, which is 250 or 300 pounds. Some don't participate at all. Whenever the lobster gear came ashore in late June, when it opened again, there were a lot of boats that had nothing else to do, so they just got their quota every day. It didn't last very long.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

It wasn't for a lack of mackerel during that spring opening.

[Mark Arsenault]

No.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Have the sightings been strong? How would you compare what you're seeing on the water now with what you saw when you were a boy, when mackerel were plentiful?

[Mark Arsenault]

Regarding the number of schools, it's probably more. I'm not saying there are more fish, because you can't see the depth of it all the time, but as I said, I'm sailing over 40 miles some days. When you go home in the daylight and the waters are calm, it's one after the other after the other. It's not every day—I'm not here to tell you lies—but in some cases it's just crazy.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Arsenault.

Now I'll go to Mr. DesRoches.

We had DFO's director of science here on Monday. He talked about the sightings of mackerel on top of the water. He said that plentiful sightings of mackerel on top of the water is not a true indicator of a plentiful resource.

You've fished mackerel all your life. If you were looking for an indicator of mackerel, what would you be looking for?

[Lucas DesRoches]

As Mark previously mentioned, historically, when people were going after mackerel, they would find schooling herring. That's where the bulk of them would be. Where there's smoke, there's fire. If there are tons of mackerel showing up on top of the water, there are tons of mackerel there. It's hard to tell exactly what's going to be in a school, but you have to go into it and fish it to see the quality of it and the size of the mackerel in it.

I can tell you that, at times, when I fish bluefin tuna and there are no schooling herring around.... We have radars in our boat that we can set up to pick up gannets and other birds diving, and we'll follow to where those birds are. You'll always find a school of something. Sometimes those schools are quite significant as well.

The biggest indicators are visibly seeing the mackerel and knowing from herring fishermen that there are herring spawning and that there will be mackerel around, or just sailing around, following your radar and finding the birds, because they're diving for something.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

We only have a few seconds.

Mr. DesRoches, you were at the AMAC meetings this year. Is that correct?

[Lucas DesRoches]

In person, no.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Okay. You know who was there.

[Lucas DesRoches]

Yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

How many ENGOs attended the AMAC meeting this year?

[Lucas DesRoches]

I couldn't give you an exact number, but I know there were more than last year. There seem to be more every year, which is troubling because—