Evidence of meeting #29 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was site.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Mr. Connors.
Mr. Deschênes, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Let's continue discussing that paradox.
First, there are some long-standing requests from Chaleur Bay. Requests are submitted virtually every year. Research documents say that one of the reasons softshell clam harvesting has not been opened up is that three departments are involved and, in any case, they don't have the resources. The Canadian Food Inspection Agency, the Department of Fisheries and Oceans and the Department of Environment and Climate Change Canada all say they're stretched to the limit.
They say they don't have the resources to open new sites, and yet when people go out to harvest clams, there are officers from Fisheries and Oceans. There's no shortage of funding to crack down on recreational fishers. How do you feel about that, Mr. Roberge?
I used to be a legal aid lawyer and fathers would come see me after being fined at Easter for harvesting softshell clams with their eight-year-old grandchildren. They were being treated like criminals.
How does it make you feel when you see this kind of double standard, when there's money for law enforcement, but none to open new sites?
Fishermen, As an Individual
They say they don't have money, but they sure had the money to chase us down in helicopters, and I can only imagine what that costs per hour.
The sea is right in front of us and 20 kilometres away in New Brunswick, they're allowed to harvest softshell clams. It's the same water. Then, they have oyster farming in Bonaventure and Saint‑Siméon, but we aren't allowed to harvest softshell clams because we've been told the water is polluted. It's clean enough for oysters, but not for softshell clams. Why is that? I don't know.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Perhaps more sites are open on the New Brunswick side than in Chaleur Bay, on the Quebec side. What do you think of that?
Fishermen, As an Individual
I don't know how many sites are open in New Brunswick, but I do know they're allowed to harvest softshell clams in New Brunswick.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Ms. Allard and Mr. Bourdages, how do you feel about this paradox?
Fishermen, As an Individual
As Mr. Lévesque said, it's a really stupid paradox. Mr. Roberge talked about Bonaventure. Fisheries and Oceans Canada authorized oyster farming on a softshell clam site where we're not allowed to fish. That's outrageous. We may be travelling side by side, but our final destinations differ.
When it comes to opening sites, as Mr. Roberge noted, two areas in New Brunswick have waste water treatment facilities: Bathurst and Campbellton. There's a 120-kilometre stretch between the two that has no waste water treatment. People harvest tons of softshell clams, which they're allowed to sell. It's quite a paradox.
Someone somewhere at Fisheries and Oceans Canada doesn't want things to move forward. Are they hoping to get a certificate of recognition for issuing the most fines in the world?
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much. I'm sorry, but the member's time is up.
We have just enough time for two rounds of three and a half minutes each.
You have the floor, Mr. Arnold.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you to the witnesses for being here.
I'll start with Ms. Allard.
How much has the population increased in the area where you live and harvest? How many more people are there now than there were 25 years ago?
Fisherwoman, As an Individual
Do you mean in the entire Gaspésie or in the fishing area? The population in Saint‑Omer and Miguasha has increased by less than 3,000 people. I'm not really sure. There are maybe 5,000 more in Saint‑Omer and Carleton‑sur‑Mer and 3,000 or 4,000 more in Maria.
Conservative
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Are more people harvesting clams now than 25 years ago?
Fisherwoman, As an Individual
Let's face it, families were bigger before. I'm the last of nine children. Things are different now. More newcomers have come through immigration. Families are smaller and there's a more diverse range of jobs. Things have really changed. I don't think there's an overabundance of softshell clams. However, I suppose that if people dig in the same areas all the time, the clams won't be as big as they are in Bonaventure.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Thank you.
Mr. Bourdages, how far apart are some of the closed areas and the open areas? How many kilometres apart would a closed area be from an open area, approximately?
Fishermen, As an Individual
There's about 150 kilometres of shoreline between Port‑Daniel—Gascons and Miguasha, and 48 sites. In some areas, softshell clam fishing is prohibited for 10 to 15 kilometres. In Bonaventure, where Mr. Roberge also lives, clam fishing is permitted for about 3 kilometres. At one point, there's probably only one kilometre that offers great softshell clam fishing, but it's closed. The Port‑Daniel—Gascons site is the only one that's open, and the next site is in Gaspé. There's approximately 100 kilometres between Port‑Daniel—Gascons and Miguasha without an open site.
What's the big deal? Fifteen years ago, the population of the Gaspésie was 210,000, but now it's less than 82,000.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative Kamloops—Shuswap—Central Rockies, BC
Before I run out of time, it sounds like the open and closed areas are mixed along the shore—along the same river. Rivers run downhill like everything does. It's the same water flowing past all these sites, yet some are open and some are closed. Is that correct?
Fishermen, As an Individual
Yes. Bonaventure has Bonaventure River. Port‑Daniel—Gascons has Port‑Daniel River, which flows downhill, and the area isn't closed. There's a huge factory nearby. Nothing in Bonaventure dumps pollutants into the sea other than the waste water treatment facility. Maria also has a treatment facility. Carleton-sur-Mer has a treatment facility, and so does Nouvelle. All those zones are closed.
There were no treatment facilities 35 years ago and we used to harvest as many softshell clams as we wanted. I'm not sick. I'm 72 years old and I've harvested softshell clams with my father and with Mr. Roberge for 50 years. We're here to debate this issue, but normally we wouldn't be here. We'd be out fishing because it's low tide right now.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Mr. Arnold.
We'll finish with Ms. Petitpas Taylor, who has three and a half minutes.
Liberal
Ginette Petitpas Taylor Liberal Moncton—Dieppe, NB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
I wish to once again thank our witnesses for joining us today. I've greatly appreciated the presentations by Ms. Allard, Mr. Bourdages and Mr. Roberge.
I'm an Acadian from New Brunswick and I used to harvest softshell clams with my family. I have fond memories of that time. We really loved clam digging.
I have a fairly simple question for the three of you. We're conducting a study that's very important to you and your community. What message do you want to get across to the committee today?
Ms. Allard, you can go first.
Fisherwoman, As an Individual
My message is that we hope we have been heard and that it will be easier for us to go fishing.
I've eaten softshell clams in Tracadie‑Sheila many times. My brother-in-law lives there, and fishing is allowed. My message is that this issue needs to be addressed. Perhaps they can reduce spending elsewhere, I don't know. We often hear that there's money to burn. Most of that money comes from us Canadians, so why not spend some of it on something as simple and straightforward as this? Clams are within our reach, as long as they're safe and edible and they've been tested, if need be. I've never had any concerns. If a clam doesn't look right, we don't harvest it, but that never happens.
Fishermen, As an Individual
It's a pleasure to see you again, Ms. Petitpas Taylor. We've met a few times before.
It's quite frustrating to drive along the Chaleur Bay shoreline and to see all these shellfish harvesting areas where harvesting is not allowed. People are frustrated.
If I had booked three buses today and made some posters announcing that we want to go softshell clam harvesting, I've no doubt the three buses would have been fully booked. People don't have the means to pay a $250 fine for every clam they dig up. They want to harvest clams in their own backyard, within their community. This area is managed by Fisheries and Oceans Canada, which has not stepped up to manage it properly.
Yes, some sectors can be analyzed, and the decision can be made not to authorize fishing in some areas if they are too contaminated, but there are still areas that are perfectly suitable for fishing. The fact is that this has been done successfully in the Mingan area. On March 15, fishers received a letter stating that a softshell clam harvesting area would be opened in Mingan. Port‑Cartier is open year-round. People in Port‑Cartier fish all year long. My brother-in-law lives there and he rubs it in all the time. He calls me to say he's filled a five-gallon pot and wants me to come over for dinner. It takes me eight hours to get to his place by car and by boat. It makes me sick, but I'll be there for Easter. I told him to go fishing and we'll have some together over Easter in Port‑Cartier.
I welcome the fact that Fisheries and Oceans Canada, along with the competent people, is looking into opening softshell clam harvesting areas by section, sector or area. The clams are there, and I'm sure we can harvest them.
Thank you, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Thank you very much, Ms. Petitpas Taylor.
That brings us to the end of our first panel. I'd like to thank our witnesses for attending this meeting in person and remotely. Their testimony will help the committee with its recommendations for the government.
With that, we are going to briefly suspend while we welcome our next panel.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
Colleagues, we're back.
I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of the new panel.
Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to unmute your mike and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.
For those on Zoom, at the bottom of your screen, you can select the appropriate channel for interpretation: floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.
All comments should be addressed through the chair.
I would now like to welcome our witnesses.
From the Center for Initiation to Research and Support for Sustainable Development, we have Esteban Figueroa, researcher and executive assistant, impact on training.
From Merinov, we have David Courtemanche, general manager; and Marie‑Gil Fortin, industrial researcher and project manager. Both of them are participating by video conference.
From the Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association, we have Catherine Lambert Koizumi, executive director; and Jeremy Jerome, commercial fisher. Both of them are also participating by video conference.
We will now hear opening statements. Witnesses will have up to five minutes for their remarks, beginning with Mr. Esteban Figueroa.