Evidence of meeting #29 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 45th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was site.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
I am sorry that I am cutting you off because I do not have a lot of time. But what you are telling us is super-important.
So basically, when the federal government refuses to open new sites on the pretext that it doesn't have the resources—although it can send masses of officers to crack down on us—there's an effect on the sustainability of the sites that are currently open.
General Manager, Merinov
Yes, absolutely. If we could distribute that pressure among more sites—
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Right. It's not good public policy in terms of sustainable stocks.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Mr. Courtemanche, you have the technical capacity—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I am sorry, but the time is up.
That completes the first round. We are now starting the second round. The bells may start ringing, but I hope there will be unanimous consent to continue a little longer.
Mr. Généreux, the floor is yours for four minutes.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Lambert Koizumi, to my knowledge, first nations have hunting rights. If I am not mistaken, they have the right to hunt in certain parts of Gaspésie. Is there not the same kind of thing for fishing? Don't you have ancestral rights there too?
Executive Director, Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association
Yes, absolutely. Treaties do recognize ancestral treaty rights. That's certainly the case. But there are also agreements between communities and the government. Each year, we have to go through formal and administrative steps. Often, the nations have to add specific species to the permits. In some cases, agreement is reached; in others, there is no agreement. It depends on the specific species.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
Are the agreements—
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I am sorry to interrupt you, but the bell is ringing.
Do I have unanimous consent to continue for 10 minutes?
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
Ms. Lambert Koizumi, are the agreements you have solely with the federal government or with the provincial government too?
Executive Director, Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association
It depends, because some species are managed by the province. Most marine species are managed federally. In those cases, our agreements are with the feds. But salmon and anadromous species, for example, are managed provincially.
But, yes, first nations do have recognized rights.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
Okay.
Mr. Courtemanche, in his testimony just now, Mr. Bourdages was saying that, in a stretch of about 150 kilometres, some sites are open and some sites are closed. In 150 kilometres in Chaleur Bay, what makes the water good in one place and not good in another place one, two, three, five or ten kilometres away? What makes the difference?
I honestly have difficulty understanding that. I do understand that every inch of water in 150 kilometres is not tested and that places to take water samples have to be chosen. But, if I understood correctly, Mr. Bourdages was just telling us that seven out of 48 potential locations are currently open in a stretch of 150 kilometres.
So, how can one say that the water is not good somewhere five kilometres away from a place where it has been evaluated as good?
Can you try to explain that to me?
General Manager, Merinov
It is actually quite localized. There is agricultural runoff. There are compliant and non-complaint septic tanks. There are waste water treatment plants. In climate events, some discharges may go directly into the sea. Various factors can actually cause one site to be open and another, not far away, to be closed.
But that is not what we are talking about at the moment. We are talking about sites being closed by default, just because they are not being sampled. That's the difference. If those sites were sampled, it might be possible to open them, but then others would remain closed.
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
Mr. Courtemanche, if I understand correctly, we are allowing the resource in the seven open sites to dwindle while actually pretending that the other sites are closed to protect them, even though there may be nothing wrong with the water. That water is not even being sampled, so there's no way of knowing whether it's good or not. Basically, we are destroying the clam stocks in the open sites and not even sampling others. That just makes no sense to me. To say nothing of all the money we spend for people to monitor the beaches in helicopters at all hours of the day and night. There's all kinds of money for that, but none for research. I feel that all Gaspésie should rise up and say that it makes no sense.
I am so pleased that Mr. Deschênes asked for this study. This is about tradition, about first nations and about a quality food source. When people tell us that they have been eating clams for 50 years and, at 75, they have never been ill, surely, at some point, we have to stop getting worked up. I feel we could even open the sites and test the water simultaneously. We can walk and chew gum at the same time.
Mr. Bourdages, I understand that there can be a difference when there's a river that may have some agricultural residue. But the water in the bay changes twice a day. It's flushed clean, just as it is in the St. Lawrence River where I live. Moreover, water quality has been improving considerably for years, especially with all the water treatment plants that are now everywhere in Gaspésie.
I am not blaming you, of course, but—
Conservative
Bernard Généreux Conservative Côte-du-Sud—Rivière-du-Loup—Kataskomiq—Témiscouata, QC
I think that there will be other studies. Anyway, the study will continue, with officials present. That will be interesting.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Patrick Weiler
I am sorry, but we have to keep going.
Mr. Morrisey, the floor is yours for four minutes.
Liberal
Liberal
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
I am grateful to Mr. Généreux for his support. It will be much appreciated at home in Gaspésie.
Let me start with you, Mr. Courtemanche. Let's say we move forward and succeed in getting the political will to finally fix this injustice whereby Chaleur Bay has been forgotten for too long. From a technical point of view, since Merinov is already a subcontractor for Environment and Climate Change Canada, would you be in a position to lead the expertise needed to test the water and open new sites in Chaleur Bay?
General Manager, Merinov
Yes, and we could also train community groups of samplers. For example, the Mi'gmaq Wolastoqey Indigenous Fisheries Management Association and other organizations are already set up. That would reduce the costs needed to open a site.
Bloc
Alexis Deschênes Bloc Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC
Can you expand on that idea? Would it be with volunteers?
