Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 1st, 2006

[Bryon Wilfert, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

We could go on. I have real concerns about how that approach works in terms of getting people to really appreciate elections and really inculcating in them their importance at the local level in order to have them participate nationally. But I'll turn it over to my colleagues so I don't cut them off.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll have Mr. Kingsley first, and then it will go back to Mr. Martin.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

I would like to add, very briefly, though, that as part of what we do, we also provide advice on how the national body should inform the local population or the population in general, even if it's local--all population is local, effectively--through outreach programs and through publicity programs. And that's how we can help there. But we cannot be at the local level. That is not our strength.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. Martin.

[Keith Martin, Liberal, Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kingsley and Madam Davidson, for being here.

I just want to again really compliment you on the work you and your colleagues at Elections Canada have done. As you said, it's a real niche area for Canada, and with your leadership and the work you've done and the work your colleagues have done, you really try to provide stability in areas of chronic instability. It seems to me that as a country, this is a niche area that we could, and ought to, really capitalize on in the future.

My question really involves two countries. One is Afghanistan and the other is the Congo. Could you perhaps let us know what obstacles you foresee in the future in Afghanistan in being able to ensure that there are going to be future elections? And what structural changes are required in the Byzantine world of Afghan politics to enable the government of Mr. Karzai, or whoever becomes the government, to develop a structure that provides more stability on the ground?

Second, could you let us know what lessons you learned from the recent Congolese elections and what structures are needed in place to provide stability in that great country that has seen so much violence and heartbreak?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Mr. Kingsley.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'd like to thank the member of Parliament for the laudatory remarks about our work on the international scene. This is much appreciated. And he is right about the fact that this is a niche area for Canada. We are well known for that around the world.

In terms of Afghanistan, our role, initially, went to helping establish a register of electors. It did not delve more deeply into setting up the electoral body and the running of it. Where we could come in handy in Afghanistan, where we could come in handy in the Congo, where we have provided advice to Cameroon, for example, within the last six months, and why the Nigerian electoral commission came to Canada within the last three weeks is exactly the area where we could be helpful. That is to say, we could help devise the kind of reflection that would help them establish what the forces at work in that country are. And how can they get that represented effectively on an electoral commission so that it is established as an independent body and at the same time is reflective of the population? That is something we can help devise.

We're not involved in the Congo at all, so there's no lesson for us to learn there. If we went, I'm sure we could learn with them. But we're not involved in the Congolese elections at this time. We were not involved at all as Elections Canada.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Barbot.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Good afternoon, Mr. Kingsley. Thank you for being here with us.

I'm particularly pleased to meet you. In the last election, you had to intervene in my riding, Papineau, which is located in Montreal. Some flagrant irregularities occurred.

That leads me to point out that the electoral process faces difficulties, regardless of the country in which it takes place. Its integrity must be preserved and attention must be paid to ensure that democracy is properly expressed. On that point, I know your reputation precedes you, and we have benefited from it. The goal is full respect for democracy.

Obviously, the context was completely different in Haiti, difficulty there being commonplace. Your intervention was a key moment that enabled people to see that something was happening and that, with the elections being held, there was at least a tangible sign of possible change. The studies we're currently conducting on Haiti clearly show us that the election is a key moment, but a lot of work has to be done in the meantime.

You say your strength lies in support for the democratization process over the long term, and you refer to strengthening the capacities and independence of electoral commissions. In a fragile state like Haiti, what do you do between two elections?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chair, with your permission, I'll answer that.

We've obtained funding enabling us to send Canadian experts to Haiti to work closely with Mr. Bernard and the provisional electoral council. There's going to be a twinning with Haitians who are qualified in the area, but who are not quite familiar enough with the subject for the moment. So there'll be a knowledge transfer.

In addition, I'm going to have to meet with representatives, including the President of CIDA, to develop a more detailed program to allow for the establishment of a permanent electoral council, which has never occurred in Haiti. So that “p” in the word “provisional” will mean “permanent”. However, with local and municipal elections, members will have to be appointed to the permanent electoral council. We'll have to ensure follow-up.

It will be possible to help develop Haitians' capacity. There will also have to be funding to enable them to achieve that objective. There will be no way to do that without funding. With today's technology, it will no longer be necessary to keep all the paperwork, which is a problem in Haiti. We'll be able to keep everything on a few CDs. So that's what we're headed toward.

I'm going to Haiti next week. I'll talk about all that with Mr. Bernard, whom I'm going to meet, and with other members of the provisional electoral council. I'm going to ask them how we can help them establish a permanent situation there.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Is illiteracy a special problem when it comes to preparing and holding elections?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Of course, it causes difficulty in a developing country, but eliminating or overcoming that kind of difficulty is one of the challenges that the electoral council must try to meet through voter information campaigns.

Our expertise is less specific to that area, but we can nevertheless provide assistance. To do that, we shouldn't necessarily use Elections Canada funding. Funding from CIDA and the Canadian government is available to support the efforts of the provisional electoral council to reach the population and to explain the process to them. Although the process may have seemed complex to the Haitian population at the time of the elections, the advantage was that the average voter only had to make a few decisions. In the first and second rounds, that was to choose a president, senator and member. There was a way to explain that process to Haitian electors.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

You have another minute and a half. Perhaps, Madam Bourgeois.... Did you want to do a split there?

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, Mr. Kingsley.

Fifteen days ago, our committee took a trip on which it visited a few countries. We went to see how countries were working to ensure democracy. You have worked with IDA. So we've heard about you. The comments on Canada's work for democracy was very flattering. I don't know whether my colleagues agree with me, but whatever the case may be, we were very proud of our electoral system and of the work you're doing.

On page 8 of your speech today, you refer to the way governmental and non-governmental organizations can best contribute to democratic assistance globally. You state the following:

It is useful to reiterate that Elections Canada is an independent agency of Parliament. This independence provides us with credibility and effectiveness on the international scene.

I sensed something in your voice when you read that sentence. As parliamentarians, we aspire to help parliamentarians of other countries. What do you think of the idea of establishing exchanges between parliamentarians in order to ensure democracy?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Bourgeois.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chair, first I want to express my gratitude for the flattering comments made about us.

What is expressed involuntarily is often what betrays a depth of thinking. There is indeed a wish that I would like to state, and that is that Canada's policy and efforts regarding democratic development assistance be more coherent.

Elections Canada can do its share, but to say it takes more than one election to make democracy is a cliché. I wanted to set that cliché aside and simply say that elections are both simple and complex, even here, in Canada. We forget that that's the case, but we see it when we go abroad. You have realized it. I wanted to tell the committee about certain thoughts.

It seems to me Canada could be more consistent with itself. I heard my predecessor, the President of CIDA, talk about the 25 countries that are considered as deserving Canada's aid. I know we're headed toward this kind of practice, but I would like to determine what the required factors are for establishing a good democracy in various countries. Reference would undoubtedly be made to freedom of the press, general audit, free elections, and functioning parliamentarians. For the parliamentary system to function properly, there has to be respect for the opposition. That's what's lacking in a number of countries.

The idea would be to establish a coherent set of criteria and to determine the needs of each country, not only in certain respects, but with regard to all criteria. You could even involve bodies such as Elections Canada, the Auditor General, organizations that are concerned with freedom of the press in Canada or parliamentarians, when it comes to explaining to other parliamentarians how a real democracy operates. That's what I wanted to suggest by my remarks.

Thank you.

[Diane Bourgeois, Bloc, Terrebonne—Blainville, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. Van Loan, then Mr. Goldring, on a split of time.

[Peter Van Loan, Conservative, York—Simcoe, ON]

Right.

In French, you said something to the effect that:

Pure observation is not the best way to deploy Elections Canada resources. Our strength lies in providing electoral support that addresses the longer process of democratization.

Then you go on to talk about capacity building, particularly the independence of electoral management bodies, helping to develop and design them and so on.

I want you to expand a little bit on that, talk about what context in which those kinds of efforts work well. Independence is sometimes a question of perception, and of course there are degrees of independence too. Then there is the risk of getting involved in legitimizing operations that aren't truly independent, that you may actually be providing assistance that helps a kind of anti-democratic regime. I want you to comment on that whole package.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Van Loan.

Mr. Kingsley.

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, in elaborating on my remarks, Elections Canada I think has an opportunity to make a real contribution to the process. I'll use a relatively concrete example. The Nigerian electoral commission came here recently. They were interested in knowing how they can make an election happen. They're caught with this. They get a lot of advice from people who go there, but they don't get the knowledge from people who actually deliver elections.

I've heard this from many countries. When we initially went to Haiti, people were saying that at least we deliver the goods in our country and that they're able to talk to us and get something meaningful. Cameroon came. They were trying to establish--I don't know how far they've gone--how it works. They want to know how an independent body becomes independent, what makes it maintain its independence, and how to relate to Parliament and to government. Through exploring this, we're able to provide assistance to them.

I agree that there may be varying degrees of independence, but there has to be a minimum. There has to be a minimum that's acceptable. And by the way, we look at that before we involve ourselves in other countries. We may be asked to help a particular country, but we'll want to make sure of that. For example, in Haiti, the Conseil Électoral Provisoire was set up in such a way that there is the requisite amount of independence. We did the same thing for the Iraqi elections.

I wouldn't want to go into a country because it's on the list of 25, but the electoral commission is all warped and it's not going to work. I wouldn't want to do that, because there's no point. It's not going to get us anywhere unless the mandate is to change it.

I don't know if I'm answering your question in a way that makes sense to you. I hope I am.

But that is where the strength comes in. Reputation comes from the ability to deliver, and at the same time the ability to advise and to relate, based on their culture and based on the forces that are in play in that community.

In Iraq, there were three basic communities. All three were represented on the Iraqi electoral commission. That gave us a feeling that things were there. The legal mandate was clear that they were independent. At the end, we also made recommendations about the number of people that they should have full-time on a commission. They have eight now. We felt that this was too many. We suggested there may be another way of structuring it or keeping the same structure, but with commissioners who are not there all the time. It makes it very difficult for a chief executive to carry out his or her tasks under such circumstances.

This is where the expertise comes in. It's not a straight transposition of the Canadian electoral system, as you can well imagine. I don't have commissioners overlooking my work. I have the procedures and House affairs committee, principally, doing that work. I have Parliament looking at how I behave and how I perform my tasks.

It's relatively easy to transpose ourselves into other cultures and to discuss ways they could improve their system and enhance and maintain their independence.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you.

It's good to see you again, Mr. Kingsley, and Ms. Davidson. Certainly your reputation is known around the world for the good work that you and Elections Canada have done.

I would refer to the voter turnout in the last election in Haiti, which was approximately 30%. I believe that indicates there is a misunderstanding by the public on the role of their parliamentarians and the system.

We had another witness here that spoke of Ukraine, where CIDA has been providing money for education at the university level. The question would be why that is at the university level when we know they've had their independence for 15 years. Surely, 15 years ago they would not have been teaching democracy, even in the elementary schools. Why would it be going there?

So my question really is on how much importance you put on education of the citizenry and what has been done in that direction. Have you or the electoral commission from the various countries such as Haiti done anything to bring that along? I think that even if it was started today, this would be a generational, maybe a 20-year process, to have a population that has a literacy level of 60% to 70%. I would think it would be one of the highest priorities to get on with that education process. Have you recommended this to them, or have they initiated anything like that?

[Jean-Pierre Kingsley]

Mr. Chairman, the efforts that we deploy are made through the electoral body that is there, in light of its mandate to educate the public about the electoral process. That's something that we do in Canada through our outreach programs and our different advertising for an election. Obviously, what we look for and what we encourage is for the electoral body to get its expertise from within its own country and to reach out to its own citizens in ways that makes sense to them.

I'm pleased to hear your comments about the participation rates—not that I'm pleased about the participation rates, but I am about hearing your comments about them—because they do highlight what I consider to be practically unfair expectations on the part of the international community about how quickly democracy will install itself after an election. Initially, a lot of people—I'm not saying members of the committee, but a lot of people in the world—thought that because there was an election there, democracy is there. We saw this in Latin America, and my remarks were about the Latin Americans thinking that democracy doesn't work because they're not seeing the change in their lives. In my view, it's not that democracy doesn't work, it's that the democratic system or the democratic actors or undemocratic actors who are there are not helping the situation evolve. That is the real problem, not democracy. There is no alternative to democracy.

Your point is well taken about the fact that it will take several generations and that more has to be done in the schools. But that is much longer-term and something that I'm not sure the electoral body is best placed to handle in that country.

I think the educational system in those countries is there. If we had a holistic approach to democratic approaches and to democratic development, we could start to address in a very significant way, at primary school and at high school, the flaws that need to be addressed in the electoral system or in the education system concerning elections.

I'll make one further comment. The participation rate of 30% for the second round was better than anything they've ever achieved on the second round in Haiti. In terms relative to Haiti, that's significant progress. In terms of comparing it to the 60% turnout from the first round, it does indicate that there is a problem, and this is the question to which your colleague was alluding a little while back.

No matter how well you explain it, the people perceive that the important elections were for the president and were not for the others. That is because there's a concept that the authority will be vested with the president. This is why the municipal elections and local elections turn out to be so important in Haiti. In essence, as Mr. Bernard was saying before this committee, they will set about a countervailing power base at the local level, so that everything does not flow from the presidency. Perhaps that will have added value for the democratic process in Haiti.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Kingsley.

Mr. Dewar.