Evidence of meeting #26 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was elections.
A recording is available from Parliament.
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
4:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
We're in one of these times and places where the supplementaries and the mains will--
4:20 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Okay.
With that in mind, I will then direct my question to CIDA vis-à-vis.... I was going to ask about grants, and you're talking about having accountability, and everyone applauds that.
My question is, in a time when we're talking about accountability--I was on the Bill C-2 committee for accountability, and the direction of the government, and most people would support that direction.... I'm quite concerned and a bit disturbed that we're going in the direction of grants, because when you tell me or other Canadians that we're going to have accountability and aid effectiveness, it's very hard for us to measure that when we go through the World Bank, when we go through other agencies, where we don't have a window on it, and we should. I'm going to ask a follow-up question on that.
My question is, why are we going in this direction of grants instead of the other aid methods that have worked so well in the past?
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
Thank you for your question.
Of course, working in developing countries requires that we adapt our contributions to the needs of those countries. They aren't all made at the same level, as regards receiving aid.
Even in the case of contributions to the World Bank, the bank has retained the services of PricewaterhouseCoopers to audit its figures. In addition, we at CIDA audit those audited figures. So we go through a number of steps to ensure that taxpayers' money is properly spent.
If you allow me to complete my answer, I'll tell you, for example, that the French representative in Afghanistan, Mr. Mazurel, publicly congratulated CIDA on the way it ensured that funds were spent in Afghanistan. I'm referring here to his article.
4:25 p.m.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
That's kind of him, but that's not my question. My question concerns value for money, and we aren't able to see that value for money.
We've asked time and time again in the House, and I'm saying to you, as someone who is critical of the government's direction, why are we going towards grants when we know--and you've stated--this is something we don't have a window on?
I'm not talking about who audits the World Bank. I'm talking about giving us a list and value for money, goal orientation with evaluation, of exactly how many schools have been built and showing us how much money has been invested. What we see here--and I see it in the supplementary estimates, which we'll get to another time--that we're going down the same path. We're going through these other agencies we don't have a window on.
So that's my concern. But my question is--and this is maybe to Mr. Greenhill--as someone who is a contributor to the World Bank, we have the right to see the value for money. We have the right to have a list of programs the World Bank invests in and the money we contribute. I'm not seeing that kind of detail, and we need that detail.
Further to that, we're hearing that in Afghanistan this micro-credit is terrific, but there's not enough of it, and it's going into administration. Someone has already asked about how much money the government is receiving, and we're hearing things like 60% is going into administration, but we don't know because we haven't been shown the facts.
What we need here first is less going to grants, and second, a window on development money, because Canadians are deeply worried that the money we quite willingly want to help with reconstruction isn't getting there. We just don't know. That has to change.
4:25 p.m.
Conservative
Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
To ensure that CIDA takes as little risk as possible, the grants are paid to organizations such as UNICEF, the Red Cross, UNESCO and UNAIDS. Their audit systems have been proven.
You mentioned Afghanistan, and I refer once again to the remarks by the World Bank on CIDA's procedures in Afghanistan. That said, Mr. Greenhill can supplement my answer and give you the details you wanted.
4:25 p.m.
President, Canadian International Development Agency
Thank you very much, because it's an extremely important question.
Perhaps the best way to answer is to provide some of the results of the research that we've been directed by Minister Verner to undertake. I refer to the pamphlets in terms of the tuberculosis results. That actually was grant funded, but it was grant funded where the results in terms of outcomes could be measured, and it was $200 per death averted.
If we look at the issue of measles death rates, this was actually work that was done with UNICEF that resulted in a reduction of measles deaths by almost half in Africa, and Lancet, the international journal, actually calculated extremely effective results and also that it was very cost-effective.
Similarly with the vitamin A distribution, where in fact vitamin A deficiency can be cured at a cost of 10¢ per child, and what we've done in terms of river blindness and what we've done in terms of salt iodization, all of which tend to have gone through a grant formula...we tried to ensure in each case that there was, as Minister Verner has noted, third-party verification from an auditing point of view, but increasing this focus that's so important on real results that we can measure and that we can actually determine in terms of cost-effectiveness. That's the way we're trying to ensure that we match some of the effectiveness and efficiency of grant modalities with actual oversight of results.
What I'd also note is that it's just part of the mix, and in different circumstances, different methods would be appropriate. We'd also be happy to provide more details, particularly in terms of issues such as the World Bank and other multilateral organizations, on the kinds of evaluations that are being done to ensure that we're actually getting results.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
We want to thank you for coming, but just before you leave, I do have a couple of very quick questions.
First, it is stated in the estimates that:
In 2006-2007, CIDA will also refine the definition and parameters for aid eligibility that will apply to countries of concentration, fragile states, and a range of other countries in need.
Mr. Greenhill, you've talked about the country concentration, how it has been smaller countries and more money going into those countries. Does the minister agree with the criteria used to select these 25 countries? This says that we will “refine the definition”. Do you agree with that?
Secondly, our committee has undertaken a fairly comprehensive study. We visited some countries in Europe in which 0.7% has been a target for countries all around the world, many of which are doing very well at it. There has been a push from outside sources, including the Make Poverty History campaign, to have Canada commit to reaching the 0.7% official development assistance compared to GDP. How does this target fit into your new aid effectiveness strategy?
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC
To answer your question on the country concentration, I'll say we're currently involved in that exercise. We also want to review the criteria for targeting those countries. Ultimately, we want to concentrate our efforts so that we get the best results. As I previously said, some countries are better equipped than others to receive aid. Some need another kind of intervention. In short, we're going to establish our criteria so as to ensure that the aid is efficient and produces results.
In response to your second question, concerning the 0.7% objective, I would remind you that, in its last budget, our government expressed its wish to double the 2001-2002 international aid level by 2010-2011. We also have to ensure that aid is efficient.
At CIDA, we, in a way, manage the generosity and compassion of Canadians through the funds that are granted to us. I think that, out of respect for taxpayers, we first have a duty to consider, adjust to and ensure aid efficiency.
4:30 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Thank you.
Thank you very much, Madam Minister. We appreciate your being here for the look at the main estimates. It's your third trip here, and we appreciate that.
We will suspend momentarily, and we will move on to our next witnesses. Mr. Kingsley is here from Elections Canada.
Thank you.
4:35 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
I call this meeting back to order.
We return to our committee's major study on democratic development.
We have with us today Jean-Pierre Kingsley, Chief Electoral Officer of Canada, who last appeared before our committee when we were studying Canada's experience in Haiti. I believe at that time he brought some friends—those who were involved with the Haitian elections—before our committee. He chaired the International Mission for Monitoring Haitian Elections, which was comprised of electoral organizations from around the world.
Jean-Pierre Kingsley was appointed in February 1990. Since then, he has been responsible for the management of all federal electoral events, including the 1992 federal referendum, five general elections, and numerous byelections. Mr. Kingsley has held a variety of other positions in both private and public sectors.
We thank you for appearing, sir.
Also with us today from Elections Canada is Diane Davidson, Deputy Chief Electoral Officer and chief legal counsel.
I understand that you have an opening statement, Mr. Kingsley. We look forward to hearing from you. The floor is yours, sir.
4:35 p.m.
Jean-Pierre Kingsley Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I really appreciate this opportunity.
The gentleman who appeared with me was the chief executive officer or executive director of the electoral commission of Haiti, Jacques Bernard.
In terms of byelections, we have two going on in this country right now.
It is a privilege for me to appear before this committee today. I am accompanied by Mrs. Diane Davidson, who is the Deputy Chief Electoral Office and chief legal counsel, as you have said.
My remarks should take about seven or eight minutes, as you've requested.
4:40 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Today I will discuss the work of Elections Canada in promoting democratic development internationally, the value-added that we bring—at least in our view—to Canadian efforts in this sphere, and the ways in which our collective efforts can be maximized.
Elections Canada has long played an active role on the world scene, assisting countries in their efforts to establish sound democratic electoral processes. Since 1990, as a matter of fact, we've participated in initiatives in nearly 100 countries—admittedly initiatives of varying magnitudes. By the way, my office, through my predecessor, was also involved on the international scene in Latin America, Chile in particular.
Our activities range from sending a single expert to address one aspect of the electoral process to assembling multi-year, multi-country teams to undertake in-depth and ongoing analysis and assistance, to undertaking observation and accompaniment covering all areas of the electoral process. These initiatives have given us the experience that has proven instrumental in evolving a unique approach to international electoral assistance. Our approach is one of accompanying—therefore my use of the word “accompaniment”—electoral management bodies before, during, and after elections, and of helping them develop and strengthen institutional frameworks, skills, and autonomy, or independence, which are crucial building blocks to electoral democratic development.
This approach is an elastic model that allows for mutual learning. It has enabled us to accomplish a great deal, for instance, with our partners and colleagues at the FEI, the Federal Electoral Institute of Mexico.
The principle of accompaniment guides our international work and was most recently exemplified in two multilateral election monitoring missions in which we worked closely with the Independent Electoral Commission of Iraq and the Conseil Électoral Provisoire in Haiti.
The international missions for monitoring Haitian and Iraqi elections, both of which I chaired, are unprecedented examples of the extraordinary level of international cooperation mobilized for those purposes. Each mission was led by a steering committee comprised of executives of electoral management bodies from around the world, who provided expert and independent peer review to both the Iraqi and Haitian electoral management bodies. These missions also passed judgment on the elections, issuing timely reports to the public on the proceedings. We accompanied the Iraqi commission through three electoral events in 2005, the January 30 elections for the transitional national assembly, the October 15 constitutional referendum, as well as the December 15 Council of Representatives elections, the body which is now effectively ruling Iraq.
The value of the IMIE model is best illustrated by what it accomplished after the Iraqi legislative elections last December. In the midst of accusations of fraud against the IECI that threatened to destabilize the situation in Iraq, the mission took the initiative—without consulting anyone—to quickly put together and send a special team of four experts. Two of the experts were chosen by me and two by the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States, Mr. Amr Moussa. The critical and timely report of the electoral experts, including Doug Rowland, president of the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians, and Rafael Lopez-Pintor, a Spanish professor—whom I know well—helped to defuse a volatile situation between the Sunnis and the Shi'ites. We also held a post-mortem meeting with the IECI in March 2006 and discussed the full experience of the IMIE in Iraq, as well as the next steps, and provided advice on building a permanent Iraqi electoral commission, on which we have expertise.
In Haiti we accompanied the CEP through the first and second rounds of their presidential and legislative elections in 2006. For the municipal and local elections, and the run-off for the legislative...scheduled for December 3 of this year, Elections Canada has accepted the Haitian government's invitation to continue to accompany the CEP through a longer-term monitoring mission. That initiation was also made by the Canadian government, I should say, through CIDA, so we've accepted the invitation of the Canadian government, as a matter of fact. This mission will provide regular reports to the CEP on developments in the field, as well as electoral experts who will work directly with the Conseil Électoral Provisoire.
Our support for these elections is therefore even more focused on accompaniment, that is to say, helping them along, while still preserving our independence in producing our report on the elections.
Now I'll continue in the other official language.
These are some of the substantial accomplishments we have achieved with the resources I have been able to allocate to our role on the international scene. Obviously, my first priority is administering Canadian elections. The needs of Canadians come first. With more money and people assigned to our international role, we would be able to accomplish much more.
Pure observation is not the best way to deploy Elections Canada resources. Our strength lies in providing electoral support that addresses the longer process of democratization. We do this by working to build the capacity and the independence of electoral management bodies — by helping to design, development, implement and strengthen electoral commissions, while respecting the cultures and histories from which they emanate.
Elections may appear simple, especially in Canada, but they are not simple in Canada and, certainly, they are not simple abroad. Elections involve the intersection of different political forces, and managing that process is very complex. Not surprisingly, electoral assistance is also complex work.
The terms of your inquiry include examining ways in which non-governmental organizations and government bodies can best contribute to democratic assistance globally. It is useful to reiterate that Elections Canada is an independent agency of Parliament. This independence provides us with credibility and effectiveness on the international scene.
There has been a recognition on the part of CIDA and DFAIT of the importance of getting those who are involved in democratic development to exchange information and coordinate efforts. The Democracy Council is beginning to facilitate this. Other witnesses who have appeared before you have spoken about this.
The risks involved when Canada is the only, or the foremost, country engaged in assisting countries where democracy is fragile have been underlined by Ms. Alexa McDonough in her comments on October 4. That's what we did in Irak; that's what we did and are continuing to do in Haiti. These are the risks, whether Canada is acting alone or is leading international missions. And I believe that assisting developing democracies is a riskier endeavour today than it was 10 or 15 years ago, at the start of the post-Cold War era. But today we have a better understanding of the risks involved. There have been failures in the past, there will be failures in the future.
I understand the committee is considering a number of ideas for increasing the efficacy and profile of Canadian democracy promotion. It is important to have coherent and well-considered approaches. The growing interest in supporting political parties, for example, needs to be considered carefully. I even have some observations to make, if that is of interest to you.
Finally, democracy promotion is challenged by the growing perception in some parts of the world that democracy is not bearing fruit in terms of improving the day-to-day lives of the people. Setbacks will occur, but this does not mean we give up.
In my view, there is no alternative to democracy. What is needed is support for the entire process of democracy building and for the system as a whole, based on each country's values, history and culture. That moreover is our international trademark, Mr. Chair.
Thank you.
4:45 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson
Merci, Mr. Kingsley.
Mr. Wilfert, you have seven minutes, if you want to do a split or whatever.
November 1st, 2006 / 4:45 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
I will be, Mr. Chairman.
Thank you, Mr. Kingsley and Ms. Davidson.
Mr. Kingsley, first of all, I appreciate your presentation. I was certainly struck by the comment you made near the end about coherent and well-considered approaches.
The issue of top-down democracy is a failure, in my view, and therefore capacity building at the village level is absolutely critical. Had we been in Cambodia in the long haul, as an example, where we were involved with the communal elections in the early nineties, we might not be in the situation today where we have basically co-opted an opposition that is now essentially one-party rule, culminating in the removal of Prince Norodom Sihanouk's son, by no longer having him head of Funcinpec. They've even put his estranged wife in the cabinet now as a punishment.
I guess the question I have for you is, what can Elections Canada do in terms of assisting more at the village level? You mentioned local elections, for example, in Haiti. I don't remember from my days as president of the Federation of Canadian Municipalities whether you have teamed up with them recently to do any work using FCM's expertise on local elections. To me that is the most important thing in capacity building, to strengthen democracies, so that this will work at other levels as we move forward.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
4:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
Mr. Chairman, Elections Canada, as a rule, does not work at the local level. Our expertise, our strength, does not lie there. Our strength lies in working at the national level of elections. This is why bodies invite us; this is why other countries invite us. They want to know how to run a federal election or a national election. That is where we have our expertise, and that's where we can be of particular help to them.
In terms of what happens at the local level, other forces must intervene to allow that to happen. Our strength is in running elections. It's not in fortifying political parties, and it's not in fortifying various political forces in the country. Therefore, we can only contribute that for which we are world experts and for which we are renowned as world experts.
In terms of cooperation with the FCM, we've not done that as a major course on the international scene at Elections Canada. That is not our strength, sir.
4:50 p.m.
Liberal
Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
As a follow-up question to that then, what would your role then be in the local elections in Haiti?
4:50 p.m.
Chief Electoral Officer, Elections Canada
The local elections are being run nationally, and that's why we're there. All the elections are taking place, and they're being run by the Conseil Électoral Provisoire, which ran the national elections for the president and the runoff for the second round for the legislative assembly. They did not have to do it for the presidency, which was settled at the first round. If it had not been settled at the first round, it would have been at the second round.
So we're there. Effectively, this is the third round of national elections in Haiti, because they're running municipal and local elections through the central body, and that's why we're still there.