Foreign Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2008

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Don't we have to be careful in this discussion? The real purpose of the discussion is the sense of the inadequacy of the dialogue that has been conducted. We're all saying there have been some advances, but there is the feeling that it has not been going as rapidly as it could or should.

That's the whole reason for the discussion of this group. We're looking for ideas and suggestions on how we could do better at that dialogue. Accepting the fact that there have been some advances, but not being prepared to accept that the slowness of other advances is a cultural or inherent situation that has to be dealt with, we're looking for ways it can be advanced more rapidly.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I think more dialogue, or maybe even inviting some key leaders to Canada to learn, is how to advance. That's another way to do that. That's my suggestion.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Do you think my comment on the democracy group is something the Canadian government could specialize in if it has the sense and feeling that it could do more work in that area internationally--working on the democratic level of it?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I think so. I think Canada has a special role for this. It could also provide education to the key leaders of China. If there is a relationship that can be built, then this is certainly a great issue. Canada has a multicultural benefit in this. I think this is definitely a great way to go.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

I apologize to our guests as I came in late and didn't catch all of your presentations. I just came from another part of the world. I was in Afghanistan and got back only yesterday. I apologize for my tardiness.

I was interested in your comments and the back-and-forth in questions. It seems to me your theme was building on relationships between government, but also between Canadians and the Chinese. I think that's good advice.

You talked about the Department of Religious Affairs and the relationship between that group and the police. You touched on it a minute ago. My understanding was that if there was a concern, or if there was a group that hadn't been properly registered, the Department of Religious Affairs would be the first involved.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, that is correct.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

If the group was not willing to register, it would follow that the police would be involved. Is that correct?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, but it depends on the level of activity. If the police come in, it's mostly on the security and interference with the neighbourhood.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Would some of the people who are employed by the Department of Religious Affairs have a background in investigations, or are they more cultural liaison types? Who are the people who work for the Department of Religious Affairs? Do they work in tandem with the police? In other words, do they have separate offices? Are they people who are trained differently? Are they interchangeable with the police?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

They are people who are trained differently. They are just one of the departments that are separated from the police department. They look after religious matters. They relate to all religious matters. Of course, under the religious bureau there are different departments that will deal with Christianity, Buddhism, or Islam, but it's a religious bureau as a whole.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I wanted to probe a bit on numbers. Are there thresholds that are acceptable with respect to a religious community? If the religious affairs bureau is looking into something, they might be looking at disruptions within the community. If a particular religious sect started to grow beyond a certain number, would that be a reason for investigation by the religious affairs bureau?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Basically, eight to twenty people is acceptable.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's the criterion.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

That's right, and if it goes beyond that, the government has the right to come in and interfere.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Let's imagine that I'm organizing a community-based religious group. I decide to follow a particular religion. I get beyond twenty, and there's an investigation. Let's say that I then apply for recognition. If I'm recognized by the government, is there a limit to how far I can grow my religious community?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

If they approve, then you could grow as large as 5,000.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But this would depend on the religious sect.

Are there certain religions that aren't approved?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, basically these are the mainline religions: Catholic, Protestant, etc. Muslims have a special right and it's totally different from Christianity. In China, Islam is considered a people group. They have their own local autonomy and basically don't need to apply. They can form their religious sectors right away because they are a people group. When they get together, it is a people group gathering. It's a combination of a religion and a people group. Tibetans do the same. They are a people group and are not considered to be just a religion.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

So they would see this as more of a cultural organization than a religious group.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, that's right.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Is there a list? Maybe we wouldn't be privy to it, but does a list exist of religions that aren't recognized by the state? Would people be aware of it before they applied to be recognized?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, you're right, because China only recognizes several main religions. Other than that, the others are very hard to apply for.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

So there would be an assumption if it wasn't in these categories that you shouldn't bother applying because it wouldn't be recognized. Is that correct?