Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

One of the things that's been mentioned recently upon the visits of the Russian president and others--I haven't heard it in any of the comments, and I'd like your take on it--is the issue of debt forgiveness and when that should happen.

First of all, is that something that's on your radar, to help sustain peace and stability? And if debt forgiveness is a critical issue, when should it be done?

[Joseph Malok]

The issue of debt, actually, is a very critical one. Sudan right now is sitting at $36 billion U.S. Most of the debt was actually taken by the national government in Khartoum, and they want to divide this debt with the south.

The people of southern Sudan believe this money was taken to buy very sophisticated weapons to kill the people of southern Sudan. People wonder, “How can I pay for the things that were actually used to kill my people?” So it is not acceptable.

But for the sake of peace, people will find grounds to negotiate and see how they can settle the whole thing. Anything can be done if people have a political will to negotiate the issue of debt. We'll have to see what kind of projects were actually implemented in Sudan using this money.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Finally, while we're speaking about negotiations, do you have any update on the Doha negotiations, which are again around Darfur? Do you have any update or concerns around that?

[Joseph Malok]

I cannot comment on that at all.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We'll move to the second round of questioning, which will be five minutes.

I'm going to start with Mr. Van Kesteren.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you for coming.

I was just Googling a little bit to give myself a little bit more of a history lesson. There's a period I'm unfamiliar with, and that is....

I understand that your independence was in 1956, I believe it was--prior to that as well, too. But in the 1980s, you were involved with a civil war. Was that more or less maybe instigated by Ethiopia? Or was...?

I'm thinking back in terms of the 1980s, when the Horn of Africa was under Soviet influence. Was there a movement to export the revolution into Sudan at that time?

Am I correct in my thinking there?

[Joseph Malok]

Unfortunately, there is no connection between what was happening in the international arena in regard to the problem of southern Sudan. As you can recall, the problem of war in southern Sudan started in 1947. In 1955, that was the first guerrilla movement for the people of southern Sudan, actually, to confront the army in the north.

So there is totally no connection and there was no instigation from Ethiopia. Instead, Ethiopia was one of the first countries that accepted the refugees from southern Sudan.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

So at that point, then, in terms of the Soviets, you didn't have any influence from the Soviets into Sudan.

[Joseph Malok]

No, not at all.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

So it's largely been a power struggle between the north and the south. Am I accurate when I say that?

[Joseph Malok]

Well, actually, it's not been a power struggle, because southern Sudan has never had a chance to say a word in the whole country since independence. The war has been about equal development and an equal share in the decision-making in the country; people of southern Sudan did not have any intention to fight for any power in Sudan.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Okay.

In Darfur, is it largely Arabic or is it more tribal?

[Joseph Malok]

In terms of ethnicity in Darfur, 90% are Africans. Religious-wise, they are 100% or 99% Muslim.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Then my last question would be about the south. Again, I'm just reading this. Am I reading correctly that about 5% of the south is Christian?

[Joseph Malok]

In the south or in the north?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

In the south.

[Joseph Malok]

In the south, the majority are Christian, and the second group is animist. For Muslims, I don't have the exact numbers because we can't tell who believes in certain religions, but all of us, we respect. They don't have that high a percentage.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

The reason I'm asking about it is that there's been a power vacuum, I think. Once the United States just abandoned much, much of Africa, those parts of Africa.... Is the vacuum being filled by China? Is China largely influential in the oil exploration at this point?

I heard reports that they're buying land in Sudan, too. Is that happening, and where? Is it in the south or the north, or both?

[Joseph Malok]

Well, I have no idea of the process of selling land in southern Sudan. I'm not sure of what is going on in the north. But the Chinese are involved in business with the north...[Inaudible--Editor]...than the south.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

The south as well, too.

[Joseph Malok]

Not from the point where we stand right now because there is nothing that actually links China and southern Sudan directly. There are no negotiations. If southern Sudan becomes a different state, the Chinese are trying to know what the future of their business in Sudan will be.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Finally, are the Americans still somewhat involved in the south, or have they pretty much pulled out?

[Joseph Malok]

Could you repeat that question, please?

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Do the Americans still have political influence in the south, or have they pretty much pulled out?