Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2010

[Joseph Malok]

Well, the Americans are trying to help the process of peace in southern Sudan, and in Sudan in general. They are not helping one part.

[An hon. member]

Thank you--

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Nice try. You're out of time. We'll catch you in the next round, though. You don't share time you don't have.

We'll move over to Mr. Pearson, for five minutes.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a couple of questions for KAIROS, if you don't mind. One is about the north and the other is about the south.

Around the south, with the CPA, there were various parts of the CPA that were meant to provide assistance from the various supporting nations in various regions in which there was tension, the border regions and others. A lot of the CPA money didn't go there, and as a result the religious community—the churches throughout south Sudan—had to absorb a lot of the challenges that came with the migration of people coming out of different regions. I know you're in touch with the Sudan Council of Churches and others, but are we in danger of doing that again? As everybody has now become fixated with Sudan in the last little while and people are going to start giving money to it, it seems to me that in the regions I've been to in south Sudan, the religious communities were overrun by the sheer mass of humanity that was there, and their own particular ability to be able to respond—because they were very effective at what they did—was actually not really included as part of the overall thing.

So I'd like to ask both of you, in the south's point of view, are we in danger of seeing all this massive movement of humanity coming again? As an international community we concentrate more on Juba or some of the other places, and not on the particular areas where these people are coming. Is there some way in which we can help these religious communities that are going to absorb a lot of the pain that's happening? That's my first question.

With my second question—and I'll let you answer them both together—I appreciate Ms. Deschamps' question because it's right. These women's groups between north and south Sudan once had a very good and productive relationship. And now we are hearing that the southern women are kind of moving away somewhat as they pursue their own agenda with the referendum, leaving the northern women somewhat isolated.

How could we help? How could CIDA help? Are there ways in which we could help to have conferences, for instance, whether in Nairobi or Khartoum or Nyala or wherever, in which we can find practical means whereby these women can still come together?

I am worried about that. I think we've been talking about the fact that they're under challenge. I'm looking for practical ways in which we could help.

[James Davis]

I'll try to answer the first question.

The Church—capital C—while it's engaged and everything, can't be overrun with everything. It just doesn't have the capacity to do that. I suppose during the seventies and eighties and maybe into the nineties, there was the women's desk, there was the income-generating desk, there was this desk and there was that desk. A lot of that just sort of took the focus of the church away from its theological reflection and pastoral responsibilities and prophetic role. So we certainly are mindful of that.

You may remember that during the civil war the New Sudan Council of Churches, working in the SPLMA areas, was operating out of Nairobi. And the Sudan Council of Churches was working out of Khartoum. That's been a long process of bringing these groups together now and sorting out management issues inside and so forth. So we certainly don't want to burden the churches as such with the massive influx of people—IDPs coming from north to south and so forth.

But I think the ecumenical community is set up to have.... Out of Geneva we have the Action by Churches Together, which engages the church partners on the ground but doesn't overwhelm them, or intends to not overwhelm them. The same with Caritas, and they bring in some expertise.

So I think probably the humanitarian side of CIDA would do well to look at how they can help but not overwhelm the Church. But the Church will be there to suffer with the people, whatever happens, and it's basically to give a voice for voiceless people, when their views are not heard otherwise by governments and so forth. That's why they're there, so that's very important.

I don't know if that answers the question. We don't want to overwhelm the Church with what can happen without it, but it needs to be listened to.

[John Lewis]

In terms of the second question, I think there's a lot that can be done in helping foster the exchange between women's groups in the south and the north. For example, just in August KAIROS brought a whole bunch of women's organizations together in Colombia to do an exchange on how women in Colombia and in other parts of the world are addressing the conflict there. Part of what came out of that process was simply a strengthened women's movement. There were some concrete things about what people can do, but the linkages between the organizations that came with us to Colombia were strengthened and have resulted in some great initiatives already.

I think that in particular the support of women's issues as between north and south and within each of those regions is something that Canada could champion. We have had a history of championing women's issues in the past in zones of conflict, and there's definitely a role that CIDA could play to help the linkages. You're quite right, I think.

[Glen Pearson, Liberal, London North Centre, ON]

Do you have some examples of what CIDA could do?

[John Lewis]

Absolutely. There's fostering some exchange, with women's groups from the north travelling to the south and vice versa, but also accompanied by international actors to help ease some of the tension that is growing. As I said in my presentation, there's a real fear among women's groups in the north that they will be abandoned by not simply the international community but also their partners in the south; that there will be secession, and then southern Sudan will go off on its own.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll come back as we do one final....

Ms. Brown, did you want a turn? Then I'll do see whether there are any additional questions that we could follow up with to finish off.

Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much, gentlemen, for being here.

I have two questions that I'd like to talk on.

First of all, Mr. Lewis, I appreciate your saying that Canada can play a large part in women's issues. That is an area we've identified, first of all in the child and maternal health initiative out of the Muskoka initiative; I think we're going to see some really wonderful things happen with that. I've travelled in Africa, I've travelled in Bangladesh, and I know there's much to be done. I believe that the expertise we have in Canada, both in health care initiatives and in micronutrients, is going to both save lives and help to nurture those lives. I'm really pleased to see that.

My two questions are these, though. First of all, the instability in Sudan must be having some effects in the countries around it; it must be spilling over. What is the view from the neighbouring countries, and how are they responding to the instability they're seeing in Sudan?

And this is a question, unrelated to that question, around micro-finance. I've seen the success of micro-finance in Bangladesh and in Zambia and wonder whether or not the churches are specifically involved in it. If so, are there any success stories that you can tell us about?

[Joseph Malok]

Thank you for bringing up the issue of women in Sudan. The issue of women in Sudan is really a major concern.

You mentioned also the issue of instability. Many of the women migrated during the wartime to neighbouring countries. That has a lot of impact on the role women have to perform. Many children were raised by the women while the men were not around. The international community and the bigger powers, such as Canada and the United States, have helped in one way or another by providing some of the developmental assistance or microeconomic projects to women.

In southern Sudan after the war, after the CPA, the Government of Southern Sudan and the SPLM significantly recognized the role of women and the importance of women's playing an important role within society. The SPLM has raised the representation of women within the government and other activities by 25%. This year, the President of the Government of Southern Sudan increased it to 30%. So right now, as we speak, we have seven women ministers in the Government of Southern Sudan in Juba, which has never happened; even in Canada I don't see that big a number of women.

Other members have spoken about the women in the north. There is really a challenge for them, and we sympathize with the women in the north. This is something that requires the international community to come in and help.

[James Davis]

To respond to the question about the success of income-generating micro-finance work in the churches, that's not an area we work in, but I'm sure some of our international partners—maybe in Europe or the U.S. or elsewhere—who support the Sudan Council of Churches do that. Our area is more around civic education, peace-building, essentially supporting women's empowerment and self-advocacy.

But I want to say something concerning the neighbouring countries. Joseph alluded to the Lord's Resistance Army. It's now a regional phenomenon in Sudan, even up towards southern Darfur, but also in northeast Congo, certainly still in northern Uganda. Increasingly, without being conspiratorial as such, people believe that this is a group that will be an incredible foil by the National Congress Party to wreak havoc in the south.

The Sudan Council of Churches is saying that this can't be solved militarily. But the populations do need to be protected, and so we need to get back to the Juba peace process, which was initiated with the help of the churches, to see whether there's some way to resolve this. This is a group that does not have a political platform or wing. It is self-serving, and the benefactor, one has to believe, may in fact be the National Congress Party. But I'm willing to be disabused of that notion by Joseph.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

If the churches are not involved in micro-finance, are they involved in skills development for the women? Are they giving them some form of education that they are then able to parlay into a trade or a skill that could go into the marketplace afterwards?

[James Davis]

I'm not saying the churches are not supporting that; it's not done through KAIROS. We probably have done this in the past, but that's not the focus right now. There are so many needs, and these are very great. So it's not an area we have focused on, but we would certainly support it and encourage other partners of the Sudan Council of Churches to assist with it.

We have a core group of donors from Europe and North America who meet regularly on all the programming of Sudan, but we have chosen to channel our funds into the peace-building and justice work of the council.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

I think Dr. Patry had a quick question, and Mr. Dewar had a quick question. Then we'll wrap it up.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Merci.

If the referendum passes at, say, 60% or 50% plus one or something like that, and the north accepts it, we've been told that the problem will no longer be north-south but south-south, for many reasons. The first reason is the increased documentation of the population coming from the north and also from the boundary countries such as Ethiopia. There is also the question of how you form a government. Many tribes were not included in the CPA; politically, how do you solve that problem? Is there any danger of a rebellion or even a civil war in the south, just in the south side?

[Joseph Malok]

Thank you so much for that question. I think the Government of Southern Sudan in the person of the President of the Government of Southern Sudan has a vision of how to embrace all the southern Sudanese. The question of disclusion of some of the tribes in southern Sudan is not applicable at this particular time. Everybody has a share in whatever small thing we have in southern Sudan, and as I mentioned recently, the Government of Southern Sudan convened the south-south dialogue meeting for bringing all the political parties together and pardoning military groups that actually rebelled against the government. That pardoning and the south-south dialogue were well received and were accepted. Now they have formed a committee with all the political parties for after the referendum, when they will have another election. Then they will form an interim government, so there is no question; southern Sudan has the grounds for them to focus on the referendum.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Now we'll have Mr. Dewar and then Madame Deschamps, and we'll wrap it up with that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I will be quick.

I appreciate that our witnesses have provided this committee with very specific recommendations, and Mr. Malok, I think you've been extremely helpful.

I am interested in issues around not just the importance of having a fair and timely referendum, but also around what happens afterward. As we know, there is a lot of concern over the capacity of the south. I am concerned that if things go according to schedule and we have a referendum result, as most people expect, for separation, there is a potential for a collapse, just because of the number of people who have moved to regions in the south or the capital and the capability to sustain the new country if that happens. I'm deeply concerned. We've seen great violence after partitions, and I'm concerned that the north will then have a premise to say, “See, it wouldn't work. It can't work. They can't govern themselves.” So I would appreciate recommendations you have for Canada to help with governance issues post-referendum.

My message to our friends from KAIROS is similar. You've mentioned, and I've already asked for, specific groups that could help not only with supporting the Resolution 1325 approach, but also where we can invest. The referendum is one thing, but the post-referendum situation is another, so I would like to hear any suggestions you have for that.

Finally, there is the question of how we protect minorities in the north. I still don't have my head around that issue, and I would appreciate any recommendations you have for protecting minorities in the north. Otherwise I think they're given one option, which is to leave, and I don't think that's satisfactory for anyone.

Thank you.

[Joseph Malok]

Thank you.

With regard to part of the recommendation, you know that the war in southern Sudan has left nothing. Right now, the international community, including Canada, is asking the Government of Southern Sudan to provide good governance. It is impossible to have a good governance without capacity building. So I would love to see Canada play a role in capacity building to educate southern Sudan on how to build their capacity. Then we could talk about good governance, because good governance comes after capacity building. We want to see Canada helping Sudan in general, and southern Sudan in particular, through development, so we want Canada to play a role in this.

Regarding the protection of minorities in the north, I think there are a lot of things that can be done if Canada can help Sudan to transform itself into a democratic country. Doing that would have an impact on its citizens, not only the minorities. There are other aspects. For instance, cultures are not all the same in Sudan. There are many tribes and many religions in Sudan.

The last thing we want to focus on is that Canada should send a high-level delegation so they can acquaint themselves with what is taking place on the ground. That would really be appreciated. We would like either the Minister of Foreign Affairs or the Prime Minister himself to go to Sudan, because many people have gone to Sudan and southern Sudan and they have come back without anything happening to them. So we'd like to see that. If Canada can do this too, it will be really appreciated.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

You can just send it to our committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That would be perfect, and we'll distribute it.

We'll just finish up with Ms. Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

We did not get much time, or you were not given enough speaking time. Ten minutes, it goes fast. But then you said that needs were huge. You have a lot of expertise in various countries relating to human rights. I would like you to have the last word.

What are your priorities? What could be done immediately, within the action plan brought forward by the government ten years after the UN Security Council Resolution 1325? Is it possible to do practical things? Does this action plan include financing, without being detrimental to what is being done on site by NGOs? Would we be able to do concrete things, in a short time, with the necessary financing to support immediate actions?

[James Davis]

Without explaining the ecumenical architecture of Africa, I would just say that one of our partners has conducted a workshop in Juba with women from around Africa on UN Security Council Resolution 1325. So there will likely be some follow-up work around that to educate women leaders, and we want to involve those in northern Sudan as well.

Illustrative of the many needs around Sudan, the Sudan Council of Churches has asked us to support educating church youth to be able to go to university in the south. They know only Arabic and not English, and they are the people who feel vulnerable and left out, and who might even be betrayed by the CPA because their aspirations will not be met if they're in the southern part of the north.

There are lots of these little gaps and things to fill in, but I'll leave it there.