Foreign Affairs Committee on March 7th, 2011

[Jean Dorion, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Magloire.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Dorion.

Mr. Goldring, you have five minutes, sir.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. Magloire, you mentioned Duvalier and that you're looking for assistance to, I suppose, try him. The United Nations is still involved in Haiti. Is it not a body that could be handling this investigation more in a World Court type of situation? Could you maybe comment on Aristide? You said there was an administrative investigation on his actions in 2004-05. When I was there in 2006, it seems to me there were rumours anyway of a considerable amount of funding that left the country with him too. Could you comment on those two?

[René Magloire]

The second question was about a rumour...?

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Yes, well, I have no way of knowing, but certainly the rumour mill was flowing quite heavily there that there were suspicions that Aristide left the country with a considerable amount of public funds too. Did your administration's investigations show any of these discrepancies or show any suggestions that there were public funds that moved with him too?

[René Magloire]

To begin with the second question, Aristide....

I know that, in 2004-2005, an administrative inquiry was conducted into his regime. I did not participate in it myself. This investigation revealed that Aristide and some of his close collaborators had also plundered treasury funds. It is certain that, if Aristide should return to Haiti, the same measures will be taken against him.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

The number I heard was somewhere in the range of $600 million to $700 million. That's the number that was being repeated.

[René Magloire]

I don't know. I know that, in Jean-Claude Duvalier's case, the figure ranges from $400 million to $900 million. However, even in Duvalier's case, I don't have the exact figures.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

When I was there in 2006, it was shortly after we'd formed a government. I did an extensive report that identified certain things that should be in the recommendations as a priority. One of the items I noted back in 2006 was the great difficulty in land ownership and reform.

From the speaking notes and talking notes that we have here on our discussions on Haiti, I note that one of the difficulties is the need for 200,000 homes, particularly now, after the earthquake. They are basic transitional wooden box homes. They're not very complex. After more than a year, they've only been able to erect 30,000 to date. It would suggest to me that the people living under tarpaulins will be under tarpaulins for another five years before they get into even a modest home. They say the great difficulty is in land tenure, land ownership, and deciding who owns what.

I would think the government would be able to move the situation along more quickly than that. Could you comment on what the great difficulty is? What is holding it up so that we have 170,000 families still living under temporary plastic tents?

[René Magloire]

I would like to be able to provide a definite answer to your question, but I am not very informed about reconstruction efforts in Haiti. I am a specialist in legal and judicial matters. What I do know is that we have land registry issues in Haiti. This problem is longstanding, and it involves title to property, which is somewhat of a grey area in Haiti. Therefore, we are trying to reform that system.

When you came to Haiti, in 2006, I was probably the minister of justice. However, as part of our reform program, the priority was to strengthen the judicial system and, at the same time, to provide the judiciary with independence. This is why we adopted, in 2007, the following three pieces of legislation on judicial reform: the Loi relative au Conseil supérieur du Pouvoir Judiciaire, the Loi portant sur le Statut de la Magistrature and the Loi relative à l'École de la Magistrature. We think that this legislation will be useful in the framework of judicial reform.

In addition, it is true that we have a problem with title to property in Haiti and it would be useful to get expertise in resolving this issue.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I have another observation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

It will be your last observation.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

As I said, this was in 2006. Having had some briefing on the amount of aid that Canada and other countries contributed in the 10 years prior to that, I noticed that the state of the economy of Haiti didn't go up; it actually went down during that period of time.

You then talked about Duvalier. There were suggestions about Aristide, too. There has unfortunately been a long history of governance issues and problems in the past. Do you see those governance issues greatly improving so that you have a more optimistic future? The past has been a tragedy. What optimism is there for the future?

[René Magloire]

Up until January 12, 2010, much improvement had been noted in the governance of Haiti. The World Bank and even the International Monetary Fund mentioned this fact in their reports.

However, owing to the earthquake and because of the centralization of the population in Port-au-Prince, the whole country collapsed.

You are right, things are not moving quickly. It will be difficult because, just to clean up Port-au-Prince, more time is needed. Because of the infrastructure of the buildings in Port-au-Prince, what little heavy machinery we have cannot fit into the streets. Therefore, people have to clean up using shovels and to move the rubble onto the side of the road so that it can be picked up.

This is a very difficult situation for a country that, before January 12, was doing its best to improve its situation. The earthquake of January 12, 2010, had a catastrophic effect on the country.

Before I wrap up, I would like to answer one of your first questions regarding MINUSTAH. Following the offer made by the United Nations Stabilization Mission in Haiti that was accepted by President René Préval, the human rights unit of MINUSTAH has been working with us, especially with me and with our human rights representatives.

We are organizing a seminar, at the end of the month, that will bring together some Haitian and foreign experts so that we can learn more about the notion of international criminal law. The United Nations Human Rights Council has been extremely supportive in this endeavour.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Goldring.

We're going to finish up with Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for your testimony, sir.

The word you used that sticks with me is “impunity”. I also make the observation that the Haitian people have gone through more than most people would be able to even conceive of, let alone live through, when I think of the recent history. To make matters worse, we have the catastrophe of the earthquake and then the cholera epidemic. But then to have the return of someone like Monsieur Duvalier, for many people--and I've heard witness statements since he has returned, both from people here in Canada and from people in Haiti, about what that has done to people--it has brought back the horror of his regime.

I'm curious. You've come to us today, and we are in a committee of the Parliament of Canada. Has the Canadian government--and I don't know this, I'm just asking--spoken out in favour of holding Duvalier to account? Do you know of any statements the Canadian government has made to that effect? The government might know that.

[René Magloire]

No, not yet.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I haven't either, and I'm just curious. You want support for the judicial infrastructure, if I can use that word, in Haiti. But I think most people would want to see justice as the key facet here.

In terms of providing support, you're saying to have Canadian experts help. I think it's important that you're here today because we as a committee are studying Haiti. For the record, we want to make sure that one of the things you, as a witness, are asking for is support for the judiciary of Haiti to be able to deal with the case of Monsieur Duvalier.

In terms of evidence, do you have access to enough to go ahead with a case, if you had the support and the infrastructure in Haiti?

[René Magloire]

Yes. Regarding economic crimes, as I said, we have several reports and we have also obtained from the Banque de la République d'Haïti copies of cheques signed by Jean-Claude Duvalier himself and by his ministers or director generals. So, we have all that evidence.

Regarding crimes against humanity, there are witnesses and plaintiffs that have already pressed charges. In addition, the investigating judge's office has already heard from some witnesses. Here, in Canada, I met on Friday evening with several Canadians of Haitian descent who want to press charges against Mr. Duvalier. We will do what is necessary to make sure those charges do make their way to the prosecutor in Port-au-Prince or to the office of the investigating judge who will hear the case.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

One of the things that's important is gathering of testimony. We have experts in that field. We have a war crimes trial capacity here. In fact, we've had success in the case of Rwanda, as you know.

I'm wondering if you have explicitly asked the Department of Justice for support in helping organize and get evidence brought forward. Is what you're doing here now, asking for people to support that?

[René Magloire]

That's right.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

All right, because I think that is important to bring forward to this committee as a recommendation.

One of the challenges is of course being able to then deal with it in Haiti, as you've mentioned. Do you see this as being something that could be referred to the International Criminal Court?

[René Magloire]

In the court?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I am talking about trying Mr. Duvalier before the International Criminal Court.

Would it be something you would want to see, a reference of Monsieur Duvalier to the International Criminal Court?

[René Magloire]

According to the Rome Statute, Mr. Duvalier cannot be prosecuted by the International Criminal Court, since his crimes were committed prior to 2002, that is, before the Rome Statute came into force.