Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 5th, 2024

[Michael Bueckert]

Well, obviously, the Palestinian people are divided among many different factions and parties. A part of this is a result of the occupation itself.

We have to consider that the Palestinian Authority, for example, isn't operating under conditions of democracy but under conditions of subjugation to the Israeli state. When we're talking about popular legitimacy, the occupation is the biggest obstacle to Palestinian democracy. It denies it explicitly.

When we're talking about popular legitimacy among Israelis for a Palestinian state, we have to remember that.... Why should Israelis get a veto over whether Palestinians have a state or not? This is not an issue for Israelis to determine among themselves but something for Palestinians to determine.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

To follow up, does your organization support the right of Israel to exist? I know Mr. Balsam did state that. Does your organization support the right of the State of Israel to exist?

[Michael Bueckert]

We support the rights of all people to live in peace and security. We don't support the rights of states. States don't have rights, but yes, obviously, whether it is a two-state solution or a single democratic state, the option has to make sure that all peoples live in full equality, peace and security.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Mr. Awad, would you comment on the route—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Save your answer.

Now we go to MP Zuberi. MP Zuberi, you have three minutes.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you to the witnesses for being here for this very important study, and thank you to all the members for the shared common goal of ensuring peace and security for everyone in the region, regardless of faith, ethnicity or which border one sits within.

I want to ask about the hope that would be created within a Palestinian society for Palestinians, if and when Canada were to recognize a state of Palestine and does recognize the State of Palestine.

I understand, Mr. Balsam and Dr. Awad, that both of you have deep links in different ways to Palestinians living in the region. I'd like to hear from both of you.

Mr. Balsam, I understand that you worked for Oxfam and were stationed in Ramallah for four years. Can you speak about the hope that would be created?

To Dr. Awad, I ask you the same question, please.

[Corey Balsam]

Thank you, MP Zuberi.

I think we should be careful about creating false hope. I think the recognition is an important piece, but it has to come with some teeth. I think Canada can take a leadership position here on the global level.

Palestinians have had that false hope so many times. Talking about popular support, there was mass support for a two-state solution back in the Oslo years, going back 20 years, but it has lost support as the land mass has disintegrated.

Recognition would be important, but again, it needs to come with teeth.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I appreciate that. You did mention, in your testimony, about how it needs to be coming with teeth, as you say.

Mr. Awad, can you speak about what your expectation would be with regard to hope, if and when Canada were to recognize...?

[Dr. Mohamad Abu Awad]

I'm going to answer you with my personal experience because I lived in Palestine before the Oslo accords and afterward. I remember when the Palestinian Authority took over Ramallah. I left my medical school in Jordan and I went to celebrate in the streets of Ramallah. That's how the Palestinian people reacted to the peace process.

A year later, Yitzhak Rabin, the Prime Minister of Israel, was assassinated by the right-wing Israeli parties who rule Israel today. This is when we started to see the falling down of this hope and this peace process.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In your opinion—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

You have 10 seconds.

[Sameer Zuberi, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

—do you feel that peace and security would be furthered by the recognition?

[Dr. Mohamad Abu Awad]

Of course.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much.

We now go to MP Bergeron.

You have a minute and a half.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Bueckert, your organization argues that Palestine meets at least three of the four criteria of the Montevideo Convention to be recognized as a state under international law. The last criterion is having a territory. You say that the territory of Palestine is not defined because Israel illegally occupies Palestinian lands.

Why is it advisable to opt for recognition even if your organization finds that the solution of recognition would not address the substantial means by which Israel occupies Palestinian lands and disregards the human rights of Palestinians?

[Michael Bueckert]

I'm sorry. I was waiting for the translation there.

Yes, there are a number of conditions under the Montevideo convention of 1933 in terms of the conditions of statehood. You don't have to meet all of them. Some of the other conditions—a permanent population, a government, the ability to conduct international affairs—are already being met, and you don't need to meet all of these conditions to satisfy the qualifications for statehood.

The issue of the lack of definition of territory is somewhat resolved if we look again to the ICJ decision, which explicitly states that East Jerusalem, Gaza and the West Bank are a territory that does not belong to Israel. That presumably would be the basis of recognition, and then any final eventual borders could be negotiated down the line between two equal parties, rather than between an occupying power and an occupied population.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

Now we go to Mr. Green.

You have a minute and a half.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Balsam, I want to give you the opportunity to reflect on what I consider to be an obvious contradiction. We heard about how the diversity of Palestinian ideologies and political affiliations somehow doesn't qualify them for statehood, yet there are some groups, including those who provided testimony today, who claim to speak on behalf of all Jewish people in Canada.

I would put to you, sir, that I've witnessed you and your organization sometimes being denigrated, sometimes being positioned as not having a legitimate Jewish voice, a progressive Jewish voice, in this conversation. I want to give you the opportunity to respond to that and to say why you feel that the diversity within this country might reflect a greater call for state recognition for Palestine than perhaps what some of the other witnesses may have presented to committee.

[Corey Balsam]

You know, I take the fringe accusation as a bit of a compliment, because Jews are actually commanded to wear tzitzit, which are literal fringes, to remind them of God's commandments.

I'm not saying that we are a fringe, because IJV and organizations like us are actually growing very significantly. Just since October 7, we've just about doubled in members and now have about 25 chapters across the country, including in Cape Breton. Really, we're all over the country.

I think that is a way to delegitimize voices within the Jewish community who are supporting Palestinians. There's a lot of fearmongering in the community—and I grew up with it—to keep the community behind Israel. There's a lot of financing of different charities and things like that. There is sort of a reward for that.

However, again, yes, the diversity point is very important to acknowledge.

[Matthew Green, NDP, Hamilton Centre, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

MP Epp, you have three minutes.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. Again, thank you to the witnesses.

Continuing in the same vein, I just want to provide a little more clarity. The question before this committee and the question for Canada is not whether to recognize Palestine as a state. I think we have broad support for that around this table. The broader question is when to recognize Palestine as a state so that it leads to peace and so that the peace has popular support. That's the question I want to come back to.

I'll go to Mr. Awad and give you the same opportunity.

I don't think anyone is asking for a homogeneous position of the Palestinian people on the issues. The basis of my question is more around what system needs to be in place to lead to that lasting peace and to allow the voice of the Palestinian people to be reflected and represented. That, I don't see now.

That is why the result of negotiations and self-determination must come from the Palestinian people, but how do we get there? Is the problem of Iran part of the problem?

[Dr. Mohamad Abu Awad]

Thank you so much for your question.

I think, as we've stated here, that we are all looking for a two-state solution and for lasting peace. The main problem here is that we have an occupation that is going on. If you have a Palestinian people who are living under occupation, who cannot go from their homes to their work freely, and then you expect them to build a governance, to build a political system.... Yet the Palestinian people have done that, and we have institutions established. I'll give you the numbers.

Before 1992 and the Oslo accords, from 1967 to 1992, when Palestinians in the West Bank were under the occupation, the number of hospital beds increased by zero under the military rule of Israel. From 1992 until now—30 years—the number of hospital beds has quadrupled. It is the same thing with school chairs.

When Palestinians were given that sort of autonomy, they built an economy; they built ministries; they built institutions. There is the Palestine National Council, which has existed for 60 years now. There is the Palestinian Legislative Council. There are grounds that the Palestinian people have built and established toward establishing a Palestinian state, yet with the occupation, since 1996 the number of settlements has tripled.

Even since last July, Israel has, according to The Associated Press, seized the largest amount of land in the Jordan Valley—five square miles of land. They gave permits for 5,295 housing units to be built. When Canada and the international community recognize Palestine, that is going to tell the Israeli government that this is Palestine and that settlements have to stop.

[Dave Epp, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Leamington, ON]

Who speaks for Palestine?

[Dr. Mohamad Abu Awad]

Who speaks for Palestine? It's the Palestinian people.