Foreign Affairs Committee on May 5th, 2022

[Penpa Tsering]

Pakistan used to have better relations with the United States. When we sent our first CIA trainees to be trained in Saigon, Camp Peary and Colorado, we used to send Tibetans from Bangladesh, East Pakistan—

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I'm sorry. That's your time for this round.

Ms. Bendayan, you have the floor.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Sikyong, thank you for attending our parliamentary committee today.

You referenced in earlier testimony the plight of and indeed the similarities to the Muslim Uighurs in China. I wonder if you could comment on the following information that I have read recently. A Reuters article from September 22, 2002, stated:

China is pushing growing numbers of Tibetan rural laborers off the land and into recently built military-style training centers where they are turned into factory workers, mirroring a program in the western Xinjiang region that rights groups have branded coercive labor.

The article states that “Beijing has set quotas for the mass transfer of rural laborers” and estimates that over a half a million people are involved in those transfers.

I would also like your comment on a recent report from December 2021 indicating that the Tibet Action Institute has looked at the “colonial boarding schools” run by China and is conservatively estimating that at least 800,000 Tibetan children are now housed in these state-run institutions and are being forcibly separated from their families with the goal, obviously—as you also mentioned earlier in your testimony—to deny them their culture, their religion, their language and, indeed, their families.

Taken together, I wonder if you could comment on these policies and what they mean to you and your people.

[Penpa Tsering]

Since I assumed office, we have been focusing a lot more on studying the situation inside Tibet, because we don't want to be misinforming the international community as to what is happening there. We're still in the process of developing the information management system and information gathering, processing and repackaging and doing it for the advocacy work.

The Tibet Action Institute's report is very concerning, because they're talking about 78% of Tibetan students being put in boarding schools. When you point that out to the Chinese, they always point fingers at the United States government for how they treated the natives or at the Canadian government for how they treated their first nations. The United States and Canada realize their mistakes and are making up for it. China knows it's wrong, but they still do it in Tibet, and that's very unfortunate.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, sir.

Just this week here in Canada, and indeed in many countries around the world, we observed World Press Freedom Day. It was on May 3. That day recognizes the importance of a free media and journalistic freedom. I wonder, Sikyong, if you could comment on the current state of press freedom in Tibet.

[Penpa Tsering]

According to Freedom House, Tibet is second in the countries with the least freedom, including access to information and the media. One big concern is that China always tells something to the international community and then something to their domestic audience. Unless there is freedom of information and access to journalists about what is happening there....

That's also the reason that things are not coming out of Tibet. Forget about journalists. It's not safe for even an ordinary Tibetan to be caught sending any information out of Tibet. If you receive information into Tibet and you don't redistribute it, you are still safe, but if you redistribute it, you land in serious problems.

The free flow of information should be the basis, I think, for freeing not just the Tibetan people but also the whole of China from the grip of Chinese propaganda.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

Do you yourself fear facing any sanctions for coming here to speak to us and to others about what is going on in Tibet?

[Penpa Tsering]

They cannot do anything to me. They don't allow us to come into Tibet anyway. I don't know whether they know about my distant relatives or not. I haven't seen them for all my life. I've never been to Tibet. To fulfill my emotional needs, I try to go to the border areas to see Tibet through the fences. There is nothing the Chinese government can do to me unless they send somebody to kill me. There's nothing they can do to me. I don't fear any sanctions.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Would you like to return to Tibet one day, sir?

[Penpa Tsering]

Happily. That's what we are looking forward to. Unfortunately, it doesn't look very likely that it will be soon, but we are working towards that.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan. That's five minutes.

Mr. Bergeron, you have two minutes and 30 seconds. Please proceed, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Tsering and Venerable Tenzin Rabyal, I’d like to start by saying this is precisely the type of situation that keeps us up at night with one question on our minds. What can we do? We're wondering the same thing about the current situation in Ukraine.

It's also the question we asked ourselves when your predecessor appeared before the Special Committee on Canada-China Relations. You had one very specific request today: You want Canada to press the Chinese authorities for news about the Panchen Lama.

I imagine you've made similar requests to other governments.

Have the representations of various governments around the world brought you any news about the Panchen Lama?

[Penpa Tsering]

Including the United Nations, it has not yielded any results so far. I'm not sure whether High Commissioner Michelle Bachelet, when she visits China this time, will be pressing China for more information on the Panchen Lama. The Chinese government keeps saying that he is healthy, that he doesn't want to be disturbed and that he's being educated. He is already 33 years old now. Unless there is multilateral pressure from everybody, China is not going to respond positively. That has been the case for that many years.

I have a lot of skepticism when it comes to the United Nations. Our office has been there in Geneva for so many decades, but even the Secretary-General doesn't mention Tibet in statements. That's very unfortunate. I consider the United Nations one of the most undemocratic institutions in the world, next to maybe FIFA. We have hope, but the veto powers of these nations are too dangerous. It doesn't help the world community. They should be changing the structure of the United Nations.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

Now we'll move on to Ms. McPherson for two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you to our witnesses today.

You spoke about what's happening in Ukraine with the Russian Federation invading, the impacts on China and how China could potentially see a need to increase nationalism. There will be risks for Taiwan and for Tibet at that time.

I'd like you to explain that a little more for us, so we have that on the record. If you could, just touch upon what we've already seen with the loss of language and culture in Tibet and what the potential losses will be going forward.

[Penpa Tsering]

With the Ukraine situation now, we'll have to see how much China is trying to help, covertly or overtly, to support Russia. I strongly believe that there was some level of agreement between the Russians and the Chinese when it came to Ukraine. Otherwise, Russia alone would not have the capacity to take this on with the whole of Europe or NATO.

China has always supported countries that are, if we can call them, rogue nations, authoritative nations, countries that don't support human rights. They have always worked together to preserve their like-mindedness. Again, that is a very dangerous trend.

Let us see whether it's going to be an ideological war between the free world and the authoritarian regimes around the world. If the authoritarian regimes gain the upper hand, it's going to be very difficult for the world community in the years to come. It will be a new global order that will be dangerous, that does not respect any international law and that is going to set a very bad precedent for the whole world community.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Could you give us some of the further impacts that will have on Tibet?

[Penpa Tsering]

On further impacts on language and culture, the more that China becomes stronger and aligns with other authoritarian countries, this will lead to more and stronger laws. Even now, they are already reintegrating the Chinese constitution when it comes to language and culture. What is provided in the Chinese constitution and what is being implemented on the ground are two totally different things. That is what the Chinese always do. Communism has always been based on lies.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I'm sorry. I have to move to our next questioner.

Mr. Chong, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for appearing in front of our committee.

In March of last year, the Government of Canada announced sanctions against certain Chinese officials for their participation in gross and systemic human rights violations against the Uighur Muslim minority in the Xinjiang province in China, just north of Tibet.

I have two questions.

First, how do you view the effectiveness of these sanctions against these particular Chinese officials and entities? Second, what is the likelihood that applying similar sanctions against Chinese officials in the Tibet Autonomous Region would improve the human rights record of the PRC in Tibet?

[Penpa Tsering]

Again, one has to understand how Communist China functions. Communist China functions based on the authorities that come from the central level. If you have to sanction the leaders in Uighur, their actions are approved by the central leadership, so then you will have to start sanctioning the president himself. Only then will there be some impact. Otherwise, sanctioning officials at the lower level alone does not help, because they have the support of the central leadership. They don't mind.... Some people don't mind not going out of their country, so it doesn't help to just not grant them visas. China always uses visas as a very important tool to bar people from speaking out against Chinese human rights abuses and other issues.

If there have to be sanctions, the sanctions have to begin from the top level. That is how the Communist government functions.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Just over a year ago, Canada's ambassador to China, Ambassador Dominic Barton, visited Lhasa from the 26th to the 30th of October in 2020. It was the first visit by a Canadian government official to Tibet since 2015.

Given the highly controlled nature of these organized trips by the PRC to Tibet, how do you view their effectiveness? Do you think they are trips that the Canadian government and other government officials from other democracies should participate in, or do you view them as a tool of propaganda?

[Penpa Tsering]

They are definitely a tool of propaganda. I don't know how much the ambassador was briefed about the situation inside Tibet before his visit, but I think you need a lot more briefing. These are all tours conducted by the government, which wants the ambassadors and visitors to see only those places, institutions and people that it wants them to see. It does not reflect the reality of the situation inside Tibet.

If Tibet has been turned into a socialist paradise, as they claim, why can't they allow not just ambassadors but also people from all walks of life to come into China? I would urge the Canadian Parliament to move an act similar to the United States'. Reciprocity is the foundation of diplomatic relations, and reciprocal access to Tibet or Uighur is very important, because any Chinese person can come to any part of Canada.

There's no restriction for any Chinese person to visit any part of Canada. However, if a Canadian goes to China, you need another permit to go into Tibet. There is no reciprocity in that. If the Chinese are not afraid of showing the socialist paradise they have turned Tibet into, why don't they allow people to come in and see it for themselves? Why is it only select people, like ambassadors, who are taken to selected parts of the institutions and areas they want them to see?

I am sure the ambassador may not have been.... Of course, we are not denying that there is development in Tibet. There is development, but again, the development is for whom? That is a big question.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you for that answer.

The final question I have is.... In your opening remarks, you mentioned you would like to see the adoption of a motion by this committee and by the House of Commons regarding the resumption of the Sino-Tibetan dialogue. Can you elaborate on that?

[Penpa Tsering]

Some people questioned me about the relevance of the middle-way approach today, and I keep saying that it is more relevant than ever before. We've seen Ukraine, the destruction that has gone into it and the amount of money that went into the lives and properties.

The middle-way approach is based on non-violence as a means, and non-violence can be the only way in this 21st century to resolve conflicts. That is what His Holiness has been doing over so many decades. He even deters.... It's not like Tibetans cannot take up violence—