Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I call the meeting to order.

I am chairing the meeting today. Mr. Spengemann is not available, so as vice-chair, this duty has fallen to me.

I would like to begin by acknowledging that the land on which we gather virtually and in person is the traditional and unceded territory of the Algonquin nation.

Welcome to meeting number three of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development. Pursuant to the motion adopted on January 31, the committee is meeting on the situation at the Russia-Ukraine border and implications for peace and security.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. The proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website. So you are aware, the webcast will show the person speaking, rather than the entirety of the committee. Screenshots or taking photos of your screen is not permitted.

To ensure an orderly meeting, I would like to outline a few of the rules to follow.

Members and witnesses may speak in the official language of their choice. Interpretation services are available for this meeting. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French. If interpretation is lost, please inform me immediately and we will ensure interpretation is properly restored before resuming the proceedings. The “raise hand” feature at the bottom of the screen can be used at any time if you wish to speak or alert the chair.

For members participating in person, proceed as you usually would when the whole committee is meeting in person in a committee room. Keep in mind the Board of Internal Economy's guidelines for mask use and health protocols. As the chair, I will be enforcing these measures for the duration of the meeting, and I thank members in advance for their co-operation.

Before speaking, please wait until I recognize you by name. If you are on the video conference, please click on the microphone icon to unmute yourself. For those in the room, your microphone will be controlled as normal by the proceedings and verification officer. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly. When you are not speaking, your mike should be on mute.

I would remind you that all comments by members and witnesses should be addressed through the chair.

I would like now to welcome our witnesses.

Is Ms. Hulan on now?

[Heidi Hulan, Assistant Deputy Minister, Strategic Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

I am.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Ms. Hulan, I'm Marty Morantz, the member of Parliament for Charleswood—St. James—Assiniboia—Headingley and vice-chair of the foreign affairs committee. I am chairing today, as the chair is not available.

I would like to welcome you to begin your remarks. You have five minutes. Please feel free to proceed.

[Heidi Hulan]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I hope my camera is working properly. I have had some technical issues, and I apologize for my delay in joining of the meeting.

Thank you again, Mr. Chair, and thanks to the members of the committee.

The mobilization of Russian military forces in and around Ukraine continues, with no sign of de‑escalation. The situation remains unpredictable and President Putin's military intentions remain unclear.

We're working closely with our allies and partners to find a diplomatic solution to the military conflict, by developing multiple strong deterrents.

Today, I'll be talking to you about the four main areas that Global Affairs Canada is focusing on: our diplomatic approach, our work on sanctions, our support for Ukraine and consular planning.

Turning to diplomatic engagement, over the last month Canada and our Euro-Atlantic allies have engaged in intense diplomacy along several complementary tracks, primarily via NATO, the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe, OSCE, and bilaterally, between the United States and Russia.

Minister Joly recently travelled to Ukraine, Belgium and France and is in frequent contact with her counterparts.

Canada and its allies are united in this crisis. We speak with one voice in support of Ukraine and see diplomacy as the only viable path forward for Russia. We have presented Russia with a choice: meaningful dialogue or severe consequences.

In terms of the impact, Canada is working with Australia; Europe and its member states; the United Kingdom; and the United States to develop strong and concrete punitive measures, including sanctions.

Canada is prepared to quickly impose tough sanctions that would target influential individuals and entities with ties to key sectors of the Russian economy. We'll also be able, with little notice, to extend these sanctions to other prominent individuals and entities that are part of key sectors of the Russian economy. In addition, we can quickly implement other financial measures, including export bans in specific sectors.

At this point, we aren't ruling out any possibilities.

Turning to our support for Ukraine, since January 2014 Canada has committed more than $890 million in multi-faceted assistance to Ukraine. Now we are further bolstering that support. On January 26, in addition to the renewal of Operation Unifier, which my colleague from the Department of National Defence will address, the Prime Minister announced that Canada is providing a further $50 million in assistance to Ukraine. This includes $35 million in development assistance and $15 million in humanitarian assistance.

This new funding complements the work of Canada's peace and stabilization operations program in Ukraine on security sector reform, countering disinformation, supporting the Minsk process, and advancing the women, peace and security agenda. Russia's threat has destabilized Ukraine's economy, which is why Canada also offered a loan of up to $120 million to Ukraine last month.

Through Canada's assistance, we are also supporting Ukraine's efforts to reform and build accountable, effective and resilient democratic institutions. In the long run, such reforms are the most effective way to strengthen Ukraine's democracy, enhance prosperity for the people of Ukraine and build Ukraine's resilience to Russian aggression.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You have one minute left.

[Heidi Hulan]

From a consular perspective, while the security situation is stable, the risk of armed conflict in Ukraine has increased following Russia's actions. As a result, we changed our travel advice and advisories to recommend that Canadians avoid all travel to Ukraine and leave the country before it's impossible to board a commercial aircraft.

The Canadian Embassy has also authorized the departure of non‑essential personnel and their families.

I want to point out that 90% of Canadians in Ukraine have dual citizenship, meaning that they're Ukrainian‑Canadians. Approximately 800 Canadians have registered with our embassy in Ukraine. So far, few requests for consular assistance have been received.

In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, although the situation in Ukraine and on its border is fluid, Canada's support for Ukraine is steadfast. Russia's actions strike at the very core of the values and principles that underpin the rules-based international order. In that sense, Ukraine's security is not just Europe's security; it is the world's security, including ours here at home in Canada.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Ms. Hulan, your five minutes are up. Could you wrap up?

[Heidi Hulan]

Yes. Canada will continue to work hand in hand with our allies and partners towards a peaceful solution.

I thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you very much.

We will go to our next witness. We have with us Major-General Paul Prévost from the Department of National Defence.

Major-General, you have five minutes. Please proceed.

[Major-General Paul Prévost, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Thank you, Mr. Chair and members of the committee. Good afternoon.

Mr. Chair, I understand that my microphone is not the best. If you lose me at any time, please interrupt me.

As the vice‑chair said, I'm Major‑General Paul Prévost. I'm the director of the strategic joint staff at the Department of National Defence.

I'm pleased to be speaking to you this afternoon. Thank you for having me here.

As a result of the complex operational environment linked to the rapidly evolving tensions between Ukraine and Russia, I'll be providing you with a brief update on Operation Unifier, the Canadian Armed Forces training mission in Ukraine.

Let me start by speaking broadly about Operation Unifier, as last week's announcement is an extension and an expansion of this mission. Since 2015 the Canadian Armed Forces have had roughly 200 personnel deployed to Ukraine on a six-month rotational basis, known collectively as Joint Task Force Ukraine. They generally operate across a number of geographical locations across the country, with headquarters currently located in Kyiv.

Operation Unifier has the largest footprint among NATO countries in Ukraine. In fact, Canada has been one of the main contributors to assist the security forces of Ukraine through capacity and capability building in coordination with other countries providing similar assistance.

The current contingent arrived in Ukraine last September and is composed mainly of members of the 5th Canadian mechanized brigade group from Valcartier Base in the Quebec City area. Members of this contingent will be home next April and will be replaced by other members from the Valcartier Base.

To date under Operation Unifier, our trainers have trained over 32,000 soldiers and personnel from the Ukraine security forces to increase their readiness and operational effectiveness. Since last September alone, even through the pandemic, more than 2,700 members of the Ukraine security forces have been trained by our contingent. Through Operation Unifier, the Canadian Armed Forces have delivered more than 700 training courses, working alongside Ukraine's military to develop highly specialized skills and capabilities, such as explosive ordnance disposal, military policing, combat medical training, combat engineer training, and navigation and reconnaissance training, to name a few.

Over the years, our mission has evolved. Initially, this training mission focused primarily on the individual training of members of the Ukrainian Security Forces. Over the years, we've adjusted and diversified training to meet the needs of the Ukrainian Forces.

For example, in 2020, our Canadian special forces joined our efforts under Operation Unifier and have been providing training and leadership expertise to Ukraine's special forces.

The training has also progressed from individual training to brigade level training. We've also added components to achieve lasting effects by building the institutions, such as in the professional development and academic fields.

Last week's announcement is a continuation of what we have been doing since 2015. This announcement will allow us to increase the throughput of our training we deliver, and will also allow us to plan longer term, at least until March 2025.

As announced last week, an additional contingent of 60 Canadian Armed Forces members has been added in the short term. This deployment is currently under way. The ceiling for this mission has also doubled and now authorizes the deployment of up to 400 defence personnel. This will allow us to adjust our offer over time to meet Ukraine's needs. These adjustments are welcome and will allow us to continue to build the capacity of the Ukrainian Forces to defend themselves against a range of threats.

It was also announced last week that we're delivering non-lethal aid. This non-lethal aid will include metal detectors, thermal binoculars, laser range finders, medical kits, armour plates, and other protective equipment.

Regarding the current security situation regarding Russia amassing troops on the borders of Ukraine, in Belarus and also in Crimea, we are very concerned. We are watching this very closely as the safety of our troops is always our number one priority. We follow the intelligence minute by minute, and have regular conversations with our allies to exchange our views.

Operation Unifier is a training mission, not a combat mission. Our members are far from the conflict zones. We're adjusting our posture based on the training needs of Ukrainians and the security situation.

While closely monitoring the situation in Ukraine and along its borders, we're continuing to train and we plan to keep training as long as conditions permit.

Our contingency planning is ongoing should mission adjustment be necessary. We cannot disclose the full details of these plans, but we can reassure you that our troops are currently in western Ukraine, and that solid plans are in place should further adjustments be necessary.

Let me finish by saying that Operation Unifier has been and continues to be a great mission for Ukrainians but also for the Canadian Armed Forces. We have already started our work to implement the government's decision to expand our presence in Ukraine. Despite the current tensions, we will continue to deliver on this important mission, keeping a very close eye on the security situation to ensure our troops are safe at all times.

Thank you, Mr. Chair and committee members, for having me here today and for allowing me to speak with you. I'm ready to answer your questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you very much, Major-General.

Our first round is our six-minute round.

First up is Mr. Chong, followed by Ms. Bendayan, Mr. Bergeron, and Ms. McPherson.

Mr. Chong, you're up for six minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you to the witnesses for appearing in front of us today.

It's good to see all of you.

There's been a lot of talk that NATO is working together to counter Russia's threats to Ukraine, but I'm wondering how united NATO is, considering reports that Germany, for example, blocked NATO member Estonia from transferring military equipment to Ukraine by refusing to grant permits for German origin weapons that were destined for Kyiv.

Could the witnesses comment on that?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, I can make a few comments on this, although not on the specifics of the case that has just been cited.

What we can say is that NATO solidarity is extremely strong, in fact, ironclad at this moment. All NATO allies have shared their concerns with the situation on the border and its gravity, and what it might mean not only for Ukraine but also for the broader region. They are united in saying publicly that should Russia choose a military path, NATO is prepared and its individual members are prepared to respond with significant actions.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Madam Hulan, you mentioned that NATO is united, but there seems to be discord in NATO between those members that believe in granting Ukraine's request for lethal defensive weaponry, such as the United Kingdom, the United States, Poland and Latvia, and those members, like Canada and Germany, which have not granted that request. Can you explain that difference among NATO members?

[Heidi Hulan]

What I would say here is that Canada and other NATO members are part of an extremely broad-based effort, a wider effort, to support Ukraine in many ways. This is a complex crisis and complex crises require many things, military support, yes, but also financial support, political support, etc. What Canada and other individual NATO allies bring to the table in their national capacity, whether it's training, lethal or non-lethal support, or financial support is part of this larger picture and part of the effort in demonstrating globally that the alliance is with Ukraine on all fronts.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

The crisis in Ukraine today really reminds me of the Spanish Civil War of the 1930s, which was a prelude to the Second World War. There are parallels. Democracies at the time blocked military shipments to the Spanish republic, which was desperately in need of military equipment at the time, and fascists, particularly Germany and Italy at the time, liberally supplied military weaponry to the nationalists. That was the reason for the collapse of the democratically elected Spanish republic.

I think many democracies subsequently regretted their lack of action in support, lack of support, lack of provisioning of military weapons for Spanish republicans during that time, particularly in the aftermath of the six years that followed that, which led to the terrible events of the Second World War. I'm wondering if Canada, Germany and NATO members like that are not committing the same error that was committed in the 1930s.

I'll finish by asking this question: Are there any circumstances under which Canada would consider transferring lethal defensive weapons to Ukraine, granting her request for this assistance?

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, Canada is focused right now, as are our NATO allies, on the dual track of dialogue and deterrence. The situation on Ukraine's borders is grave. The risk of further armed conflict is real. Canada is deeply concerned about Russia's buildup of military forces on Ukraine's border, and we call on them to de-escalate tensions and provide transparency with respect to their military activity.

Mr. Chairman, questions regarding what the government may or may not be prepared to provide going forward, as you will understand, are questions best answered by members of the government. What I can tell you is that Canada continues to consult closely with our allies regarding Ukraine's needs. Critically, we continue to talk to Ukraine about Ukraine's needs, and we will be ready to adjust our posture going forward depending on the situation.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You have 25 seconds remaining.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

I'll just make a quick comment.

There seems to be an incongruity between the government's stated policy of not sending lethal defensive weaponry to Ukraine and at the same time the minister openly and publicly calling for Ukraine's ascension to NATO. The essence of the NATO alliance, the heart of the treaty, is that member states are to come to the military aid and defence of fellow NATO members. Those two things seem to be incongruous.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Mr. Chong.

Next we have Ms. Bendayan for a six-minute round.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank all the witnesses, but especially Major‑General Prévost. On behalf of the committee members, I want to acknowledge the extraordinary work of our armed forces, which are all over the world, including in Ukraine.

I think I speak for all colleagues on the foreign affairs committee when I thank the armed forces for their work, and I would like to also do so on behalf of the federal government.

I would like, in that connection, to pick up on something that you said, Major-General. You mentioned that our armed forces are not currently in harm's way in Ukraine, nor currently in a conflict area, but of course, as we know, there are risks by being on the ground.

What are you seeing on the ground at the moment? Can you elaborate on the work that our armed forces are doing in Ukraine right now?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Mr. Chair, obviously, like I mentioned, we're watching this situation closely. We are, as I mentioned as well, far from the conflict zone right now in eastern Ukraine. Obviously based on what we observe we've made some decisions to relocate some of our personnel in western Ukraine. This has been done in consultation with our Ukrainian partners.

I will continue by saying the training continues. Even if we move into western Ukraine, much of the training activities continue. The majority of our training actually continues in western Ukraine. We'll continue to watch throughout the next weeks and months. Obviously the security of our troops will remain our main priority, and we'll continue to work with the Ukrainians and our allies, because we're not alone in Ukraine. We have the Danes and Sweden as well as part of our task force Unifier. We'll continue to work closely together to make the best decision to protect our troops.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

You mentioned working in collaboration with our allies who are also on the ground. Is it correct, of course, to say that Canada has the largest presence in Ukraine at the moment?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

It is true. Since 2015 we've had the largest training mission on the ground in Ukraine, but there are many more partners working with us over there.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I understand that we've trained about 32,000 Ukrainian soldiers up to today. With our expanded mission, do you have a target or approximate numbers, in either the short or medium term, of how many more soldiers our armed forces will be able to train?