Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 3rd, 2022

[MGen Paul Prévost]

We don't at the moment, so we're increasing our capacity. You've heard the announcement—

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Yes.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

—that we're sending an additional 60 troops to do this. The government also allowed us to increase our personal cap, which was 200 in the past, now to 400. Over the coming weeks and months we will continue to adjust what we have to offer. Obviously at certain points we'll hit double the capacity, so you'll see the training increase.

Also something I've mentioned [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

I think we lost you, Major-General.

Mr. Chair, is there an issue with the witness?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

I think he's back.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

As a last question, Major-General, how do you see the sanctions being used most effectively as a deterrent to further Russian aggression? Any witness may answer this. Do you believe that sanctions, including Magnitsky sanctions, could be an effective deterrent to Russian aggression?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you for the question.

I think I'll pass this one to my colleagues at Global Affairs, probably Heidi.

[Heidi Hulan]

Thanks, Major-General.

Yes, sanctions are always an important tool in the tool box for responding to and de-escalating crises and promoting respect for norms and values, including human rights.

Canada and our allies are currently looking at the crafting of significant economic measures that could be implemented very quickly should Russia choose a military path.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Are you looking specifically at Magnitsky sanctions?

[Heidi Hulan]

Magnitsky sanctions and SEMA sanctions have different purposes and different triggers. The Justice for Victims of Corrupt Foreign Officials Act, known as Magnitsky, allows us to target individuals for human rights abuses. Our Special Economic Measures Act allows us to target not only individuals but also states and state institutions for their actions. In this situation we may very well need a combination of both, but our primary target is the Russian state and its institutions.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Mr. Chair, do I have time for one more question?

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Yes. You have about 35 seconds.

[Rachel Bendayan, Liberal, Outremont, QC]

Thank you.

Could someone expand on the type of equipment we are sending to Ukraine? I believe the major-general mentioned a few items in his opening remarks. Perhaps he could complete that list for the committee.

[MGen Paul Prévost]

I can assure you, Ms. Bendayan [Technical difficulty—Editor ] mainly the range finders, thermal binoculars, spotting scopes, which I had not mentioned before, as well as metal detectors, body armour, ballistic armoured plates and some carriage equipment with that as well.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you, Ms. Bendayan. That ends your round.

Next up we have Mr. Bergeron for a six-minute round.

Please proceed.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to thank the witnesses for being here today. I also want to thank them for always being available to enlighten parliamentarians.

Even though it may seem like I'm trying to put you on the spot, I want to assure you that I'm just trying to understand.

I'll start with you, Major‑General, not because you're from my constituency, but because one of the things that struck me in listening to your remarks was the rapidly evolving tensions between Ukraine and Russia. Ms. Hulan also emphasized this in response to a question asked by my colleague, Michael Chong.

Let me give you some background.

As a member of the Canada‑Ukraine Friendship Group, the committee attended a presentation by the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development and the Department of National Defence on April 22, 2021. At that time, we were briefed on the situation on the ground. At first glance, it seems similar to the situation presented to us a few days ago, on January 27, in another briefing session, this time organized by Global Affairs Canada. You participated in that briefing, Major‑General. At one point, I referred directly to this similarity. I asked what had changed since April to cause this type of hysteria, this fear of an imminent invasion of Ukraine by Russia. I asked what was so different, besides the movement of troops at the border and the presence of Russian troops in Belarus. We were told candidly that it wasn't clear what had changed.

Again today, you're coming back to tell us about a rapid increase in tensions between Ukraine and Russia, which Russia denies, and which Ukraine also denies. Even Ukraine is telling us to stop this fear‑mongering, because it isn't helping.

Why is this fear‑mongering continuing, when there doesn't seem to be that much difference on the ground from where things stood last year? Are there actually things going on that you aren't telling us about?

[MGen Paul Prévost]

Thank you for the question, Mr. Bergeron.

Mr. Chair, I will start but probably ask my colleague from Global Affairs to continue.

It's true that, last year, there were tensions or, at the very least, troop movements around the border of Ukraine and in Crimea. That said, those movements were much less extensive than this year. Another change, which you've obviously seen in the media, is that a large portion of the troops are also deployed in Belarus. You'll also see, in the information released by the media or elsewhere in the public sphere, that the Russians have begun to operate in the Arctic, in the Atlantic, in the Mediterranean Sea as well as in the Black Sea. All this shows many more military movements.

Also, the new development this year, compared to last year, is the public demands made by the Russians, in this case Mr. Putin, as well as the diplomatic efforts. We didn't have these things last year.

I'll let my colleague from Global Affairs Canada address these new developments.

[Heidi Hulan]

I can build on that a little bit.

The buildup last spring was serious, and there was a lot of concerted diplomacy from the G7, NATO and European partners. Following that, Russia did eventually de-escalate tensions and pull back the majority of its troops from Ukraine's borders, but the intelligence picture around the current buildup is quite different.

During the spring buildup, Russia attempted to justify its presence on the basis of exercises. This time no justification of any sort has been offered for the positioning of almost a third of Russia's land forces on the border with Ukraine. As the major-general has just said, the other major change now is that Russia is demanding legally binding security guarantees that would constrain Ukraine's options into the future. This is new, and this is the subject of ongoing diplomacy at this time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

You have one minute.

[Heidi Hulan]

I'll just also say that, in addition to demands for legally binding guarantees, which cannot be met by NATO and our allies as they violate our core principles, Russia has also heightened its hybrid aggression, as the major-general has just indicated, its propaganda and its disinformation campaign. All of these things are highly destabilizing not just to Ukraine, but also to the wider region.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, I would like to thank the witnesses for their very insightful answers.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Thank you very much, Mr. Bergeron.

Next up is Ms. McPherson with a six-minute round.

Please proceed.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to echo my colleagues when I say thank you very much to all the witnesses for joining us today and providing this information. It is, as my colleague Mr. Bergeron just said, very enlightening and informative. Thank you for taking the time to do this.

What's happening in Ukraine is extremely serious, and we are very deeply worried about that. I come from Alberta. Alberta has an enormous Ukrainian population, and I know many people who are deeply concerned about family members, friends and colleagues who are in Ukraine at this time.

It won't be a surprise to anyone on this call that the New Democrats are quite concerned that we put our effort into things like diplomacy and using things like sanctions or anything we can do to de-escalate the situation and prevent the increased aggression of Russia, prevent war and prevent things that would cause loss of life for civilians, women and children around Ukraine.

I'm going to ask some questions around that, and I hope you'll accommodate me, please.

On January 21, the Canadian government announced that it was providing a loan of up to $120 million to the Government of Ukraine. It is something that President Zelenskyy has asked for. It is to “support the country's economic resilience and governance reforms”.

Can you confirm for us that none of this loan will be going to the military, and if you can't confirm that, how are you going to make sure that is the case? What mechanisms have been put in place to ensure that? That's open to whoever would like to answer it.

[Heidi Hulan]

Mr. Chair, with your permission, I'll just say that Canadian sovereign loans are always subject to negotiation, but I would like to turn to my colleague, Sandra McCardell, the assistant deputy minister for Europe, who has responsibility for this file.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Marty Morantz]

Ms. McCardell, please proceed.