Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 26th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Welcome to meeting number 33 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

Today's meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022. Members are attending in person in the room and remotely using the Zoom application.

I would like to make a few comments for the benefit of the witnesses and members before we commence.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking. Interpretation, for those on Zoom, is at the bottom of your screen. You have a choice of floor, English or French. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel. As a reminder, all comments should be addressed through the chair.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Wednesday, September 21, 2022, the committee commences its study of the extreme flooding in Pakistan.

It is now my pleasure to welcome, from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, Ms. Marie-Louise Hannan, director general, South Asia bureau; Mr. Christopher Gibbins, executive director, Afghanistan-Pakistan division; and Ms. Tara Carney, acting director general, international humanitarian assistance bureau.

You will each be provided five minutes for your remarks, after which we will turn to the members for any questions they may have.

If we could please start with—

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, may I raise a point of order before the witnesses begin?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, I was disappointed—and maybe other members were—that Monday's meeting was cancelled. Obviously, that's not something we want to see happen, especially with short notice and without consultation. I wonder if you could advise the committee as to why Monday's meeting was cancelled. I hope we don't see last-minute cancellations of meetings. There are a number of issues that we could have considered at that meeting.

Thanks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Genuis.

I have to say that I am fully aware of the fact that you were disappointed. It was something that you emphasized in the proceedings in the House yesterday on several occasions, so it comes as no surprise.

As you are aware, our intent was to hear both from you and from the principal sponsor of the bill as well, Senator Ataullahjan. The clerk was good enough to reach out to you and to the senator. Regrettably, the senator was not available for Monday, so we just decided that it would be a waste of the committee's time if we did not also have the opportunity to hear from Senator Ataullahjan.

Go ahead, Mr. Genuis.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

I don't know if you're looking for a response, but I suspect that Senator Ataullahjan would have preferred to see the bill proceed more quickly. I think my views on this are well known.

I just hope that if in the future meetings are cancelled there would be some consultation with other parties before we receive a cancellation notice. I'll leave it at that, but I think that at least a consultation and an opportunity for input would be appreciated.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

What I can say, Mr. Genuis, is that we're in no position to make judgment calls on behalf of Senator Ataullahjan.

We will endeavour to make sure that the committee does devote time to your bill, Senator Ataullahjan's bill. We very much look forward to having a robust discussion regarding the bill.

Go ahead, Mr. Bergeron.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

If I understood correctly, there are no witnesses participating in the meeting remotely.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes. We do have witnesses for both hours.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Right.

Then I want to be sure that the sound tests have been done and were successful. Is that the case?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I have another question, Mr. Chair.

We have received an amended calendar that seems to say we should provide our witness lists tomorrow. Did I miss an episode?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Yes, as the clerk advises, it's important, and this is important for all members to be aware of.

As you know, we are trying to proceed with as many meetings as possible, but in order for that to happen, it is important that every member provide the clerk with their list of witnesses for Haiti by end of day tomorrow.

This is something we didn't have an opportunity to discuss in previous committee meetings, but I would ask that all members put it in their schedules to make sure they get their—

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Mr. Chair, are you aware that this is an extremely tight schedule?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Just for the benefit of all members, next Monday, for the first hour, we will be hearing from Minister Sajjan regarding the flooding in Pakistan, but the second hour will be devoted to Haiti.

Is that okay with everyone?

Shall we proceed with the witnesses?

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Right, we have to deal with it, but it is very unusual for us to be asked to provide a witness list on such a tight schedule.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

My apologies for that, Mr. Bergeron, but we are trying.

I should say a word of thanks to the clerk and to the analyst for moving forward with these meetings with immediate dispatch. We have generally provided them very little runway to organize these meetings, and they have consistently delivered. I apologize for any inconvenience this may cause, but that's what happens when we're constantly behind on committee hearings.

On that note, we will proceed with our witnesses.

Again, thank you ever so much for being with us.

We will commence with Ms. Hannan.

[Marie-Louise Hannan, Director General, South Asia Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I would just like to clarify, before I begin, that, as we are all from Global Affairs Canada, from the same organization, I have some prepared remarks on behalf of our organization. My fellow witnesses do not have prepared remarks, so we can get into the questions even more quickly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

As you wish.

[Marie-Louise Hannan]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the invitation to speak to you today about the devastation caused by the floods in Pakistan, Canada's engagement and Global Affairs Canada's response to the crisis in support of the people of Pakistan.

Canada has a more than 70-year history of productive cooperation with Pakistan. Our bilateral relationship with Pakistan is solid and is supported by extensive interpersonal connections. Together, we are tackling urgent global problems, such as the climate crisis and the economic recovery after the COVID-19 pandemic.

Pakistan is the eighth most climate change-affected country in the world and is at significant risk of extreme weather events. Temperatures are expected to rise by 3°C to 6°C in Pakistan by 2100, which is higher than the global average.

Rainfall is predicted to have greater annual variability, and low-lying coastal areas are at risk from rising sea levels. Pakistan is considered to be a high-stress country for water availability, since the Himalayan glaciers, Pakistan's largest freshwater source, are receding.

Since mid-June of this year, heavy monsoon rainfall and floods in Pakistan have affected over 33 million people, left more than 20.6 million people in need of humanitarian assistance and resulted in over 1,700 deaths.

Since the first week of August this year, unprecedented amounts of water accumulated due to the above-normal rainfall, especially in Balochistan and Sindh, which surpassed the records of the past 62 years with a colossal 450% increase.

While the flood waters have begun to recede, approximately 37,000 square kilometres of land remain flooded across Pakistan, down from 42,000 square kilometres at the end of September.

The department is committed to working alongside the global community to provide urgent and vital help to the most vulnerable people in Pakistan as well as support for rebuilding.

The extent of the damage caused by the floods has meant that Canada, with the international community, has had to make its contribution to meet the immediate and long-term needs.

The Minister of International Development, Mr. Sajjan, traveled to Pakistan in September 2022 and stayed there from September 12 to 14. He was accompanied by three members of Parliament: Iqra Khalid, Salma Zahid and Shafqat Ali. I want to note that my colleague Christopher Gibbins, who is with us today, also accompanied Mr. Sajjan on his trip to Pakistan in September.

The purpose of the visit was both to let the Pakistani people know that Canada was supporting them and to see how Canada could best play its role in the response to the crisis.

In his testimony next week, the Minister will undoubtedly provide you with the details of what he saw and heard.

On August 29, Canada initially responded by announcing $5 million in humanitarian assistance funding. Then, on September 13, Canada increased its total announced flood assistance to Pakistan to $33 million. This figure includes a matching fund of $7.5 million.

In addition, Canada also supported the deployment of a humanitarian expert to Pakistan through Canada's deployment of the humanitarian experts project within the Canadian Red Cross Society and the mobilization of essential non-food items from Canada's humanitarian stockpiles in Dubai and Mississauga.

On October 4, the Government of Pakistan and the United Nations jointly increased the Pakistan flood appeal from $160 million U.S. to $816 million U.S. This was in response to the rising needs and scale of destruction caused by the current disaster. Over two million homes have been destroyed or damaged, forcing people to live under open skies, exposed to threats of dengue, malaria and the impact of weather. More than 1,500 health and support facilities were badly damaged, as were 13,000 kilometres of roads, making it difficult and sometimes impossible to reach families and communities in need.

Recently, on October 14, Canadian representatives participated in a high-level round table in Washington organized by the World Bank, dealing with how to respond to the consequences of the catastrophic floods in Pakistan.

Regarding the next steps, the World Bank, the United Nations Development Program, the Asian Development Bank, the Government of Pakistan and the European Union have committed to preparing a needs assessment following the disaster in order to provide an initial assessment of the impact of the situation surrounding the 2022 floods, which continues to evolve.

This needs assessment, once available, will detail the physical damages, the economic losses and the costs of meeting the recovery needs of Pakistan.

Canada will continue to align our relief and recovery assistance with the identified needs of the most vulnerable in Pakistan. The department commends the work of local and international organizations in responding to the crisis, and we will continue to engage with civil society, other international donors, the Government of Pakistan and the United Nations on how best to support the vulnerable populations affected by the floods in Pakistan.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you very much, Ms. Hannan.

I should, for the benefit of all members, repeat the position of each one of our witnesses.

Ms. Hannan is director general of the South Asia bureau. Mr. Gibbins is the executive director of the Afghanistan-Pakistan division and was with the minister when he visited Pakistan. Ms. Carney is the acting director general of the international humanitarian assistance bureau.

With that, we will now proceed with questions from the members.

Mr. Genuis, you are first.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is a very important issue—a very important study. I was pleased that our party was able to push for more hearings on this, because I think this is an issue we need to explore and ask some questions about.

I want to start by drilling into the issue of the matching programs the government operates for humanitarian assistance. This has been an issue that I've continually raised in response to other humanitarian crises: the fact that this government has made a pattern of introducing matching programs that only apply to certain charitable organizations and not others.

The effect of this—and I anticipate some of the testimony we're going to hear in the second hour—is that organizations that are present and active on the ground, and that have a high degree of capacity, are shut out from the benefits of the matching program and actually have a much harder time raising money, because their donors come to them and say, “How come the Government of Canada is matching these organizations and not these other organizations?” In other words, the policy of the government, in terms of arbitrarily matching some organizations and not others, causes potential reputational damage to these organizations, which are present and doing good work.

I've raised this before, on Lebanon and Ukraine. We spoke about it in the context of the matching program the government announced for Atlantic Canada. I don't know if those concerns, raised by parliamentarians and the community at large, are being heard at all. Again, we have a case where the government is selectively matching donations to some organizations and not others. That does a great deal of damage, especially to many small and diaspora community-led organizations.

What's going on here? Why hasn't there been a responsiveness to the concerns raised, and why is there persistence in matching contributions to some organizations and not others?

[Marie-Louise Hannan]

Mr. Chair, for questions related to the humanitarian assistance program, I'm going to turn to my colleague Tara, who is responsible for this area within Global Affairs.

[Tara Carney, Acting Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development]

Mr. Chair, thank you for the question.

Matching funds is an important tool for Canada when it responds to a natural disaster, particularly in terms of engaging Canadians, which is why we pre-established matching fund mechanisms with select partners that are indeed experienced humanitarian partners that can directly implement on the ground. What a matching fund such as this one does...through the Canadian Humanitarian Coalition, which includes 12 key humanitarian partners, as well as the networks that fall behind them, such as the Canadian Foodgrains Bank, which has an extensive network of smaller organizations underneath its umbrella.

What a matching fund allows us to do—though there are some limitations to it—is respond very quickly and in a timely way, because the due diligence and back-end operations on these organizations have already been done. It also allows us to match Canadians' donations one-to-one, so they know that, if they give a dollar, we will equally give a dollar back to the organization that has raised the funds.

The matching fund mechanism is also an important piece that allows us to respond in a timely way, so we are not delayed as fundraising efforts continue across.

[Garnett Genuis, Conservative, Sherwood Park—Fort Saskatchewan, AB]

Mr. Chair, respectfully, the witness didn't really answer my question.

I agree with you that matching programs are wonderful in principle, but there's a specific problem when you exclude some organizations. I agree that the organizations that are beneficiaries of this program are doing great work, but if you offered a social program to people in one province and not another, or to people with one hair colour and not another, people would understandably object.

Why do you have a matching program that, by design, excludes other organizations that are doing good work? In many cases, these are small, diaspora-led organizations with a significant footprint on the ground being left out, in favour of established partners of the government—in effect, larger organizations that have pre-existing relations with the government, as opposed to some of the smaller organizations that are still very active and present.

Can you take another run at answering my question and explaining why the government isn't looking for alternatives to be more inclusive here?