Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 25th, 2023

[Anar Jahangirli]

The number that I referred to, the 1,000 vehicles that have come into the region and gone out of the region, is the number of Russian peacekeeping forces and ICRC carrying humanitarian aid and necessary supplies for the people living there.

I think we have to distinguish the demands of the protesters, the eco-activists who are purely environmental in nature, from the demands and grievances of the Azerbaijani government. I cannot speak for them, but I can explain. The demands of the Azerbaijani government here should be separated from the demands of the eco-activists, but the fact that they've aligned, the fact that they see that the eco-activists are putting forward very viable and very valid demands, and the fact that the Azerbaijani government has certain concerns that must be addressed....

There are two issues here—

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I'm confused here.

Again, I'm just asking for your opinion. It's one thing to say, “Okay, I'm going to take action against this industry or these people involved in this industry,” but to take action against the entire region in such a manner looks to me—from the outside looking in—as though it's being overplayed. It's being taken to a level that it doesn't necessarily need to be. Would you not agree with that?

Why would you block food shipments, for example, going into the region? Why would you block medical shipments going into the region?

It's one thing if you want to block mining equipment going in there or things related to mining equipment. That would be one thing. Why would you escalate it to include other areas or products with nothing to do with the mining sector? Why would you go so strongly against people who are actually living in that region?

[Anar Jahangirli]

Anyone in Azerbaijan—including government and civil society—goes against the people who live there.

The Government of Azerbaijan has declared on many occasions that it's ready...and it is facilitating the traffic along the road for all civilian and humanitarian cargo. The concerns of the Azerbaijani government are related to military cargo, mining equipment and the mined natural resources.

There is an issue at hand that needs to be resolved. The concerns of the Azerbaijani government and society must be addressed. At the same time, we must ensure that the people living in that region receive the necessary supplies, equipment and life-supporting supplies.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I think I have 30 seconds left, so I have to be fairly quick.

Mr. Waters—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm afraid your time is over, Mr. Hoback.

[Randy Hoback, Conservative, Prince Albert, SK]

I don't have it.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

I'm sorry about that.

Now we go to Mr. Sorbara.

Mr. Sorbara, you have six minutes.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses today for their comments and presentations.

My first question is for the professor.

Could you just clarify or restate your comments on the role that Russia has to play within the corridor with regard to the November 2020 agreement?

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

The 2020 agreement indicates two things with respect to the Lachin corridor.

The first is that the Lachin corridor, which is five kilometres wide, shall provide a connection between Nagorno-Karabakh and Armenia and shall remain under the control of the Russian Federation's peacekeeping contingent. The other part of the paragraph is that the Republic of Azerbaijan shall guarantee the safety of citizens, vehicles and goods travelling along the corridor. There are dual responsibilities there.

Russia has clearly failed in its responsibility since it is distracted by the war in Ukraine. There's a power vacuum on the ground. Azeri authorities and their agents have quite clearly filled that power vacuum.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

To follow up, my second question is with regard to the South Caucasus and the importance of that area in the world. You mentioned earlier on in your comments the work that was done by this committee to push that agenda forward and the work done by the Honourable Stéphane Dion.

Could you kindly comment on why it's so important for Canada to be involved in that region of the world?

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

It's politically significant in terms of its location. It's a potential key point in Eurasia, I suppose, with transit from Europe, Iran and other parts of the former Soviet Union. It has interesting and important mineral wealth, as well as oil and gas wealth. I think there are some important Canadian diaspora communities, which make it relevant to us.

Finally, as indicated earlier, in the new geopolitical context, as Armenia seeks to extricate itself from the Russian orbit—it has traditionally looked to Russia to be its security guarantor in the face of Turkish and Azeri hostility—this is a chance to support, to use Mr. Dion's words, a “fragile democracy”.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

My follow-up question for both of the witnesses today is with regard to the blockade that's occurring. We've heard some testimony on why and exactly what's happening on the ground. Can we not agree that it's safe to say the blockade is having a humanitarian impact on the individuals living in that area and that the impact is a negative one?

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

To my knowledge, there's no issue about that whatsoever, and it strikes me as being a kind of alternative reality to pretend otherwise. Not only have our allies made comments about this—the United States, the United Kingdom, France—but also the heads of UN agencies, including UNICEF.

Some minimal amounts of aid are getting through. I've seen footage of Georgian Red Cross trucks under the guise of an ICRC mission getting through. It's not that there's absolutely nothing getting through. There's very little getting through, and it's not sufficient to support the civilian population. A fraction of what traditionally goes across—

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Could we go to Anar now, please?

[Anar Jahangirli]

Thank you, Mr. Sorbara.

I think the fact that the activists' demonstrations have limited the traffic.... It's obviously limited. However, the necessary supplies are passing through the road, so it is not a blockade. It is a controlled road. To make sure that the grievances of Azerbaijan are addressed and the security concerns of Azerbaijan are addressed, there must be talks between the parties and there must be a comprehensive solution to that.

The November 10 agreement that ended the war in 2020 placed responsibility on the Armenian side as well to withdraw all its armed forces from the Karabakh region. It has failed to do so. In the time period that passed, Armenia used that corridor to transport land mines to place in the occupied territory...in the territory where Russian peacekeeping forces are still stationed.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Anar.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

My apologies, Mr. Sorbara. That was a mistake on my part. You have another minute, sir.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Thank you, Chair. I saw you hold up the red book, so I thought that was a sign to stop.

With regard to the current situation, obviously it's untenable. It can't remain as such.

If I can just put this out there—and I've heard the questioning from my colleagues—it's safe to say that any sort of peace agreement going forward is obviously going to involve a bilateral agreement between Armenia and Azerbaijan, without the interlopers of other countries—namely Russia—playing a spoiler role in that, if I can use that context.

Is that where we need to head to? Is that where we need to result...? Are there the conditions on the ground to do that? You can both take a shot at it, with 20 seconds each.

[Dr. Christopher Waters]

You've put your finger right on it. It's very difficult to see the way ahead, but I think it's possible.

One thing that's for sure in my mind is that the blocking of humanitarian aid is only going to entrench positions and is going to continue a frankly de facto ethnic cleansing on the ground. There are real issues to address, and some of them have been raised today in terms of finding a durable peace, but I think it's possible with direct talks, as well as international mediation, and there's room for Canada to support that.

Thank you.

[Anar Jahangirli]

I'd like to comment on the wording “ethnic cleansing”. Azerbaijan on numerous occasions has declared that Azerbaijan and its government, the Azerbaijani people's state, is ready to embrace its Armenian citizens. There is no question of that intent. That there is an intent of ethnic cleansing, I think is an overstatement and an exaggeration.

When it comes to the peace process, peace is possible. Rules-based international order is possible, and that's what Azerbaijan has been advocating for: the territorial integrity of states. Then we can talk about minority rights.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Mr. Jahangirli.

We now go to Mr. Bergeron.

You have six minutes, sir.

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Jahangirli, we have had the opportunity to talk together a few times. You seem to me to be an extremely reasonable man, and I sincerely believe that you really want peace in the region.

However, there are a number of things that I cannot understand. For example, if you really believe that the two presidents want to reach a peace agreement, how do you explain the fact that only a few weeks after they met under French auspices, the Azerbaijani government decided to launch a large-scale offensive on Armenian territory in September?

[Anar Jahangirli]

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

My interpretation, from what I know from the media and the facts I've seen on the news, is that the September skirmishes happened after large-scale Armenian provocations and Azerbaijan had to take action to prevent an imminent attack on its territory. The—

[Stéphane Bergeron, Bloc, Montarville, QC]

I'll interrupt you right away, and I truly apologize, but there was no Armenian attack on Azerbaijani territory. There was an attack by Azerbaijan on the territory of Armenia.

If you truly want peace, how do you reconcile that claim with a large-scale offensive on the very territory of Armenia which, in theory, is not disputed? I find this hard to explain.

[Anar Jahangirli]

With regard to the border that you're referring to, Mr. Bergeron, Armenia for 30 years did not recognize that the border existed. Armenia thought that the border passed through the territory it occupied for all those years. Now Azerbaijan has come to a border that is internationally recognized but is not demarcated and delimited. What Azerbaijan has called for—a number of times—is let's sit together, let's demarcate the border and let's agree on where the border passes.