Evidence of meeting #63 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was icc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Prosecutor.
I'll turn to the issue of Iran, but from a different angle.
Mr. Prosecutor, in September, lawyers representing the families of PS752 victims submitted an article 15 communication to your office, I believe, providing information and evidence about crimes that occurred when Iranian missiles brought down Ukraine International Airlines flight 752.
Can you tell us a little bit more about where this case is and how you see next steps?
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
Unfortunately, I'll ask for your forgiveness. I don't comment on communications received. We have a process. We receive thousands of communications every month, which are reviewed in terms of our policies, looking at the gravity, the types of evidence and our jurisdiction. We follow the normal process in relation to how we deal with those.
Liberal
Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC
At this time, can you confirm whether or not the ICC would have jurisdiction in this matter?
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
I must refer you to the answer I gave a moment ago, if you don't mind.
Liberal
Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC
Thank you, Mr. Khan.
Perhaps then I would put on the record how important it is to this government that the families of PS752 victims see justice and how important it is that the ICC do take up this matter in the view of our government.
Thank you.
Liberal
Rachel Bendayan Liberal Outremont, QC
Oh, apologies.
Mr. Khan, perhaps I could ask you to comment, and I would invite Professor Cotler and Mr. Rock to comment as well, on some of the work you're currently engaged in. Given your last comment, perhaps I'll look to Professor Cotler and Mr. Rock to talk a little bit about the work they are doing to help prisoners of conscience in Iran.
Professor Cotler, I'll start with you.
Irwin Cotler Founder and International Chair, Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights, As an Individual
The question of political prisoners in Iran is, of course, a priority in our work at the Raoul Wallenberg Centre. As to the jurisdiction of the ICC, I think the special prosecutor has responded to that.
I'll use this occasion to say that in the room today, we have with us Evgenia Kara-Murza, who appeared before this committee. Since she appeared before this committee, as you know, her husband, Vladimir Kara-Murza, has been sentenced to 25 years in prison. Part of that sentence relates to the work the special prosecutor does, in the sense that he was charged with treason for his critique of Russia's criminal aggression in Ukraine, accompanied by international crimes.
We see political prisoners really as a looking glass into the present historical inflection moment, which I can sum up in one sentence: We're witnessing a resurgent global authoritarianism, the backsliding of democracies, assaults on human rights, and political prisoners, who are not only a looking glass, but the torch-bearers of the struggle for human rights and international justice, and therefore a priority on the justice agenda.
Liberal
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Prosecutor, thank you so much for being with us today. I'm very pleased to have the opportunity, through your visit, to reunite with two esteemed colleagues.
If you had not done so, esteemed colleague Mr. Cotler, I would have acknowledged the presence in our distinguished audience of Ms. Kara‑Murza, whom I went to greet earlier.
The International Criminal Court has recognized that it has no police or law enforcement forces of its own and therefore must rely on member states, states that are parties to the treaty, to execute the judgements decreed by the court.
A representative of the government of Hungary was quoted as saying that Hungary could not arrest President Putin on the grounds that the Rome Statute is not part of the Hungarian legislative framework.
In your view, is this sufficient justification to avoid submitting to the court's judgements?
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
Every state party, as a matter of international law, signs up to the whole of the treaty. Part 9 of the treaty makes it incumbent upon states parties to co-operate with the court. There are judicial orders that are issued not by me but by independent judges elected by those very states.
One expects all countries around the world that believe in justice and the consistent application of the law to be on the side of justice. States have those decisions, and history judges all of us.
Bloc
Stéphane Bergeron Bloc Montarville, QC
I will go back to the question Ms. Bendayan asked regarding the BRICS leaders summit, which is scheduled for this August.
I heard your answer to that question, but sources are suggesting that South Africa may eventually withdraw from the International Criminal Court. Have you heard these rumours? Are they true?
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
I tend not to listen to rumours. I think there are a lot of rumours about my office, about me and about everybody, probably, in this room. We know it's difficult and dangerous to listen much to rumours.
What I will say is that, since I was elected prosecutor, I have tried to re-engage with the continent of Africa. Last year, I was the first prosecutor in 17 years to be invited to the African Union heads of state summit. The invitation was offered again this year. I was engaging with Chair Faki in Addis, with Macky Sall and President Tshisekedi of the DRC when he was the chair.
I think that new rapprochement and that collaboration built upon respect are based upon complementarity and that we're not looking at ways to steal the child of justice from the mother jurisdiction. We are looking at ways of also supporting national authorities to do better, and we are here as a last resort. That's also quite important.
On the discussion on the BRICS, I think no country is monolithic. Even in Canada, there's the whole spectrum of views. This is the wealth of the well-known mosiac of Canada, and there may well be different views expressed in South Africa, the United Kingdom, in France or in Canada.
At the end of the day, the executive has certain decisions to make. It has to comply with international law. I think, from what I'm hearing.... Let's see what happens in relation to BRICS. I think there are those indications that they've said they're well aware of their international obligations. Sometimes, further commentary makes it more difficult, because for every country that's fought for independence and fought against apartheid, to have the right to decide its own destiny, sometimes more words complicate rather than help.
That's why I think I will say no more on the topic.
Bloc
Liberal
Liberal
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you very much.
Thank you very much to all three of our guests for being here today, and thank you for the work you've been doing to hold Vladimir Putin to account for the crimes he has committed—he and Ms. Lvova-Belova.
I also want to express my sympathy and admiration for Ms. Kara-Murza in terms of the horrific news we received: her husband being sentenced to 25 years.
What I'll do is start, perhaps, by asking this: In 2021, the ICC ruled that the court's jurisdiction extended to occupied Palestinian territory. Of course, we think this is a positive step in seeking justice and accountability. Canada has refused to acknowledge the ICC's jurisdiction over Palestine, although most Canadians want to see an ICC investigation into the situation in Israel and Palestine.
At the Assembly of States Parties last year, you said you were planning a trip to Palestine. Do you have any updates on that trip, and have you received any support from member states, such as Canada, for such a visit? Finally, do you agree that the ICC is one of the only legal forums available for Palestinians to seek justice?
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
I said that my objectives this year, in addition to all the other missions I'm going on, include Palestine, the DRC and Afghanistan. Afghanistan is proving, obviously, to be extremely difficult, and ever more so, but I haven't given up. I am in discussions to go with Israel and the Palestinian authorities. It's complex. However, I'm in those discussions, and I don't want to compromise them. I think it's important to move forward.
Certain decisions have been taken by the predecessor and also by the court. My obligation is to make sure I discharge my responsibility as effectively as possible, realizing that complementarity is always an option. When the states step up, the court has no role to play. We are here as a last resort around the world. We have to work in that manner so that we enhance confidence in the scope and application of international.... We focus on the areas where, really, there is no justice or accountability. We try to focus our resources in that manner so that we build confidence in the application of the law.
That's the best answer I can give, I think.
NDP
Heather McPherson NDP Edmonton Strathcona, AB
Thank you.
I guess it also comes down to how the ICC is resourced. There are always concerns that there are not enough resources for you to do the job you need to do in all the countries in the world that have conflicts and require your investigation or the skills of the ICC.
States like Canada have made significant voluntary contributions to your office since the 2022 invasion of Ukraine. I'd like to know, if I could, how much of that funding has gone to the Ukraine situation and how much has been allocated to other investigations, as well as to the court, more generally, as opposed to only the prosecutor's office.
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
The presumption of the Rome Statute is that the activities of the court are funded through the regular budget. We've tried for a number of years. I tried and failed last Christmas and the Christmas before. I really failed as an advocate, because we didn't get the resources we wanted. In fact, I didn't get one euro of new money at the Assembly of States Parties. I got up to inflation but no new money. In fact, the new money being requested was all for field presence in Ukraine. I was then compelled, even before that, in March, to utilize a provision that had not been used, article 117, which allows the court to receive voluntary contributions.
Canada has been very generous. The Government of Canada has given 1.3 million euros. Thank you for that. It's being used at my discretion. It's not earmarked. Particularly, more than half the money is being used to transform the evidence management system that I alluded to earlier. We have seven secondees who have been provided by all of you, by the Canadian government, who have been, on a number of situations, in Asia, in Africa and also in Ukraine so that we can do better.
The simple truth of the matter is that the court is under-resourced. I would go back to when Judge Abella, your great Supreme Court judge, gave the inaugural Elie Wiesel lecture in 2020, conjuring up her own losses at the Holocaust, the memory of Raoul Wallenberg's heroism, and Elie Wiesel's, and the obscenity that has befallen mankind almost every decade since. The budget that I inherited was 49.5 million euros, and we had 16 situations. To put that in context, the budget I had in my last mandate as the special adviser and head of the UN team investigating Daesh, ISIS, in only Iraq was 30 million euros, so we are woefully underfunded.
I think there are two parts. If all of you, parliamentary legislators and budgetary committees and treasuries, think that the value of international justice is simply in the sound bite, and that these lofty principles we aspire to are like distant rainbows that we're trying to find gold at the end of, we'll never vindicate those people whose emaciated bodies we saw in the gas chambers or we saw in Yugoslavia and elsewhere. We need to be properly resourced. It's an issue of peace and security. It's an issue of moral leadership. I actually think it's something we can do much better on.
I hope Canada will be right at the front this year as well in ensuring that the court is properly budgeted. Certainly, it's much cheaper than the 20-trillion or 30-trillion euro bill every year to military armaments. I think a very compelling case can be made that it's money well spent, particularly as the leadership of the court is trying to make sure the impact is felt by those who need it the most.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ali Ehsassi
Thank you.
We will now go to the next member.
Mr. Hoback, you have three minutes, sir.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you, gentlemen, for being here.
I'm just looking at the Venezuelan situation and what your results are there. What can Canada do to assist you in our own hemisphere, in countries like Venezuela and perhaps Haiti? Have you looked at Haiti as another consideration? What are your ideas with regard to Haiti too?
Prosecutor, International Criminal Court, As an Individual
If I can back up, before Venezuela there was a preliminary examination open for 17 years in Colombia. At the end of 2021, within a few months of becoming a prosecutor, I went to Bogotá and signed an agreement with President Duque in which I closed the preliminary examination but didn't abandon Colombia.
It was a new arrangement in which the government committed to keep funding the JEP, the special jurisdiction for peace. They promised to respect his decision, to give financial support and to protect witnesses. I came into my office in a new posture, outside either an investigation or a preliminary examination, to try to support Colombia and the principle of dynamic complementarity.
From Colombia, I went straight to Venezuela. Of course, I'm aware that Canada is one of those groups of countries that referred the Venezuela situation to the office, but I commended President Maduro. He was vociferously against.... I had three or four meetings with him over 48 hours in the first trip, and to my face he said that it was unfair and unjust for me to open an investigation in Venezuela when we had given 17 years to Colombia. I simply told him that I thought it was wrong to give 17 years to Colombia.
At the same time as opening an investigation, however—because I said it was required; that was my independent judgment—we created a new paradigm in which an MOU was signed by him in the presidential palace. It states that we will give every opportunity and try to support Venezuela with other actors if they are genuine and wish to translate certain legislative changes into practical effect in the courtroom. In that parallel track, as I've said, the ideal would be that they join. The state itself can devise something that works, that's effective and that's independent, like the JEP, but if not, we are here as a last resort, and we are moving forward to independently push forward our mandate.
Canada is important to all our situations. I think the general support for the finance of the office, the authority of the law is very important. I think general engagement in Latin America is critical.
I'm going on the 12th, in a few days, to the Association of Caribbean States. It's the first time a prosecutor has been invited. I'm trying to engage more with Latin America because one thing is certain. The physical distance between Europe, The Hague and other parts of the world—whether the Pacific islands or Latin America—can act as a way of disenfranchising those communities or making them feel that it's not their body of law.
Collectively, where Canada can help is to show that this law is everybody's law. It's owned by all of us.
Conservative
Randy Hoback Conservative Prince Albert, SK
Even a threat of investigation can bring about change and actions within that country. Is that fair to say?