Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 23rd, 2023

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

Thank you.

You've sensed from a lot of questions from committee members here today that clearly Canadians were rightly shocked and shaken by the terrorist attack on October 7 that attacked civilians in Israel. There was consensus by Canadians to stand in solidarity with those who were impacted and with Israel and those who suffered by or from that attack.

Now, within a couple of weeks, moving on, Canadians are also horrified by the magnitude of the civilian damage that has taken place in Gaza. You referred repeatedly to the rules of war and international law. I understand that you or Canadian officials from Canada are unable to determine what violations, if any, have occurred. Who is the arbiter? Who is the referee when international law is being violated?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

At present, as I say, I'm not able to ascertain whether violations of international law would have taken place. We will have to look at the way forward politically on this and at the end of the day, as an international community, think about where accountability needs to be brought forward.

There are international institutions of justice, and we've been asked many times about applicability of these institutions of justice to Israel and Palestinian matters. While we are strong supporters of the International Court of Justice as the primary institute of the legal institution of the United Nations, we have not felt that it has been an appropriate place to adjudicate issues between Israelis and Palestinians that are more properly matters of the peace process. That has been a focus of our international legal consideration around this conflict to this point.

Obviously, this conflict raises new issues, and those are ones that we have not, at this point, looked at.

[Omar Alghabra, Liberal, Mississauga Centre, ON]

I think it's a reasonable question that Canadians are asking, and I think it's fair to expect an answer regarding who Canada will look to as the arbiter or the referee for this question.

As my final question, can you give us an assessment of the current situation in the West Bank from a security perspective or from the perspective of the well-being of Canadians and potential escalation over there?

[Julie Sunday]

Thank you. I'll take that question.

We're very concerned about the security situation in the West Bank. We are watching it very carefully. This is partially why we are so closely networked with our Five Eyes partners there, and with the UN and with others to understand what's going on and where there are risks. This is also why we are facilitating movements of Canadians to be able to exit, because we are concerned about an increase in checkpoints and about increased scrutiny at those checkpoints. We have heard from Canadians that they themselves are concerned about going through those checkpoints and that they feel more secure with our assistance and with our being there with them.

Tensions are very high. We will continue to monitor the situation. Some days are more straightforward than others. We're learning. Every time we are out, we are adding to how we mitigate our own risks there.

Again, we've surged a number of our standing rapid deployment team officials into Ramallah, specifically to assess the security situation and ensure that we are enabling duty of care to our staff and that we are able to continue to support Canadians, their family members and permanent residents to exit, should they require our assistance.

It's moving all the time. Are we concerned that it could deteriorate? Absolutely. This is why we are taking every opportunity right now to be agile and to assist. We've been very clear in our messaging that if Canadians require our assistance, we want them to contact us now.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. Sunday.

We next go to Mr. Garon. You have two and a half minutes.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

The has just announced that Canada will not support the idea of a ceasefire. Minister of Foreign Affairs

Ms. Flanagan Whalen, in your testimony, you said that there were serious technical problems involved in sending humanitarian aid. This is an acknowledged fact, and you mentioned it to my colleague Mr. Zuberi. What the UN's Mr. Guterrez is asking for is a humanitarian ceasefire.

Canada traditionally supports the UN. Does the fact that Canada is not responding to Mr. Guterrez's request constitute a diplomatic position against sending humanitarian aid?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

Certainly we recognize the extraordinary difficulties in getting access for aid to get into Gaza, and we need to continue to work with the parties to be able to make sure it gets in. This has been challenging. There is a live conflict going on, as you've noted, but we need to try to find a way to make sure that this aid can get in. These are conversations that are ongoing with the parties to try to make sure we can get that assistance in and get—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Forgive me for interrupting, but my speaking time is limited.

I'd like to know what Canada is doing, concretely, to ensure that the current humanitarian corridor door is not subjected to bombing. And I emphasize the word "concretely".

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

Concretely, we are speaking to our partners in the region. We are speaking to the Israeli government. We are speaking to the Egyptian government. We are speaking to others who deal with the authorities in Gaza, whom we don't directly speak with. We are making clear our expectations that civilians will be protected and that civilians will have access to much-needed humanitarian assistance. We are continually doing this.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

Has Canada's refusal to support the humanitarian ceasefire led to further discussions with these governments in the region?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We are having conversations with those governments and we are addressing the issues around humanitarian access in those conversations. We are making clear our expectations that humanitarian goods need to get in and that this needs to be part of this process. Those are ongoing discussions with all of the relevant authorities of the region.

We have good relationships with each of those authorities. I think the fact that the Minister of Foreign Affairs and the Minister of International Development were present in Cairo over the weekend at the summit was a good thing. The Minister of International Development was able to reach out beyond the governments to a series of international partners, the international organizations, to better understand their challenges and to ask them how Canada could be helpful.

What we're hearing from some of these partners is that the mere fact of Canada's standing up, meeting with them, being public about the meetings with them and being public about our very large donation is tremendously helpful to them.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you.

We will go next to Madam McPherson. You have two and a half minutes.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Again, thank you for the testimony.

This morning the Humanitarian Coalition did say that they have requested a matching fund. As a New Democrat, I want to express that we would strongly support that request and that we hope the government will take steps to put that in place.

What I want to ask about now is military sales, military goods that go to Israel every year.

Canada exports about $22 million in military goods each year. We've long called for a ban on those arms sales to Israel while the occupation continues. Canada is also a signatory to the Arms Trade Treaty. Obviously that requires the states that have signed on to consider human rights in their arms deals.

Do you track whether any of those military goods or technologies sold to Israel are being used in the war in Gaza? Also, how can Canada be in compliance with the Arms Trade Treaty while it continues to export weapons to Israel at this time?

Thank you.

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We do have a strong export control system, and respect for human rights is enshrined in that. We are required to look at goods that have military purposes to assess them on a case-by-case basis in that framework and to put them against the Arms Trade Treaty's criteria that are enshrined in our Export and Import Permits Act.

Permits for controlled goods are not issued if we feel that there is a risk that they would be used to commit or facilitate a serious violation of international human rights law. It has not been a question thus far in this conflict. I can say that with some certitude.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Just to clarify, that means that from your understanding, no Canadian arms are being used in the current conflict.

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

I have not seen any requests for shipments of any military goods.

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

What about ones that have already been shipped? Do we have any way of knowing whether Canadian arms have been used in this conflict?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

We do keep track of the goods that we ship. We do the assessment at the time they are exported to make sure that it is done under the conditions of our own legislation as well as the Arms Trade Treaty. That is where we are right now.

I don't have information about anything that is currently going into Gaza, but certainly anything that would be applied for to go into Gaza now would be looked at against the criteria to try to figure out whether it might be a risk to violating our obligations—

[Heather McPherson, NDP, Edmonton Strathcona, AB]

Could you provide to the committee at a later date information on whether arms that have already been sent—not arms that are currently being sent, but arms that have already been sent—have been used in the war?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ali Ehsassi]

Thank you, Ms. McPherson.

We will now go to Mr. Chong for five minutes.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a couple of questions about some of your testimony in your opening remarks.

I note that you said in your opening remarks that Hamas has killed more than 1,300 Israelis. We know where that data comes from. It comes from the Israel Defense Forces and the State of Israel.

Later on in your opening remarks you said, in reference to Palestinian civilians in Gaza who have been killed, that there are reports of 4,000 killed. Where do these reports come from?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

There are a variety of different sources for the reports of Palestinian deaths. Those include the local Ministry of Health, as well as non-governmental organizations and international organizations.

The reason—

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Does the department treat reports from the State of Israel and the Israel Defense Forces as having the same veracity as reports from the Ministry of Health in Gaza?

[Ann Flanagan Whalen]

There's been a greater consistency in the reporting from Israel. We trust the reporting from Israel. There are a wide range of figures that have been asserted on the Palestinian side. That makes it a lot harder for us to be able to judge what the precise numbers would be.

However, a life is a life, and we are certainly concerned about the suffering that has occurred on the Palestinian side. We know that there are deaths that are occurring, evidently. It's a little bit harder to get an exact picture of the precise numbers, though, because we do have this range that is put out there.

We recognize as well that there is an information war that is going on and that the numbers that are being put out can often include that element of making a point publicly.

[Michael Chong, Conservative, Wellington—Halton Hills, ON]

Does the department acknowledge that there's a difference between information provided by a liberal democratic state and information provided by a ministry controlled by an entity listed as a terrorist group under the Criminal Code of Canada by the Government of Canada?