Evidence of meeting #39 for Government Operations and Estimates in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was servants.
A recording is available from Parliament.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
You said that a large number of contractors are not counted in this category of temporary workers. Approximately how large is that number?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The last number I saw on the public accounts was about $300 million. Most of that is in the national capital area.
NDP
Claude Gravelle NDP Nickel Belt, ON
Somebody on this side of the table--I'm not sure who--said a while ago that public servants couldn't speak to a committee unless a minister was present. Wouldn't that be considered some form of intimidation?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I come with my employees, but you'll notice they let me speak the most.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Madam Barrados, perhaps you can answer that question. Under the Accountability Act, the deputy ministers are accountable, not the ministers, so I think that is a very valid question. If you can give your impression of this, it will help the committee make up its mind.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
The minister is fully responsible for the management of the department, with the exception of the new legislation that has designated the deputy minister as the accounting officer.
It's the deputy minister who answers to parliamentary committees on administrative matters in the department under their responsibility, with the exception of human resources and staffing, which I have delegated but actually ends up back at the commission.
But overall in our system of government, it is the minister who is responsible for the department.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Yasmin Ratansi
Do you have any further questions, Mr. Gravelle?
Mr. Warkentin, for five minutes.
Conservative
Chris Warkentin Conservative Peace River, AB
Thank you. I appreciate having the final question here. I think this will be the last one we get an opportunity to ask.
I'm going to shift things a little bit, just because I think we've probably exhausted many of the issues that you've reported on and the other things of interest.
You talked about the Prime Minister's commission on efficiencies; I believe David Emerson is a co-chair on that. They outlined a number of things related to the back office, to the systems and the rest of this. I know that this comes outside of your main responsibilities, but I know that you have a lot of information as it relates to your responsibilities and the relationship between systems within the government.
Because our committee is very interested in this, can you give recommendations as to how we might be able to make government more efficient while still maintaining the services that Canadians have come to expect from their federal government? By having a discussion about those systems and the improvement of those systems, I think that as a committee we might be able to recommend something that would be helpful to the government.
Could you give us your perspective as to who would be good for us to speak with in relation to creating efficiencies? I'm not asking you to judge the right way to do it or the wrong way to do it. I'm just asking about people who are doing it, people who are trying to create efficiencies. It could be other countries or other jurisdictions here in this country. Do you have any suggestions that the committee might be able to consider moving forward as we look at this issue?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I don't want to be so presumptuous as to tell the committee what they might find useful, but I'll tell you what I find useful, and the committee can take that any way they like.
The Prime Minister's advisory group is actually doing interesting work. It's a cast from across the country. There are interesting issues that are raised. Not all of their recommendations are really implemented, so it's an area that is of interest.
I have found the experience in the Netherlands particularly interesting, because there has been a move there that is being run by public servants, at the direction of the government, to reduce government, to make the investments in the right place, and to improve the back office. There is a colleague there to whom I have been speaking, Roel Bekker, who gave one of the addresses at the IPAC conference this summer in New Brunswick.
The Australians are also very interesting, because Australia at this point is going through a major review of its public service. I don't know what the outcome of that is going to be, but they have a new government and they're undertaking a broad-based review. There's a lot of interest here in Canada because Australia has many parallels to Canada in size and governance.
There are a number of interesting things being done in some of the provinces, too. I hesitate to do this, because of course if I don't mention all provinces, that presents difficulties. There are interesting things being done in Quebec. We deal with colleagues in Ontario as well as British Columbia. In different sectors, there's quite a network. We meet regularly and we exchange practice. I'd be happy to share with the committee any of that kind of material if somebody wants to review it and see if there's anything you might find interesting.
Liberal
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Thank you, Madam Chair.
I want to go back to something you just said. Correct me if I'm wrong. Did you say that deputy ministers are accountable to Parliament for the administration of the departments?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
Deputy ministers are accountable for administrative matters in their departments through the legislation of the Accountability Act because they're designated accounting officers.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
Okay. I raise this because we are obviously having an issue with getting the information we've been trying to get, particularly on the stimulus program.
I'm just wondering about it from your perspective. When a deputy minister appears before this parliamentary committee, is that type of information of which we should be able to avail ourselves from that particular public servant?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
My colleague has pointed out that I should be more careful in my utilization of language: it's “answerable”, not “accountable”. The minister is accountable and the deputy ministers are answerable. So they're answerable on the administration of their programs.
I don't understand the specific circumstance or what exactly has occurred, so it would probably be inappropriate for me to comment.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
What circumstance could there be where a deputy minister would not be able to provide this committee with the information we need with respect to the stimulus program, for instance, and the amount of money that's been spent?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
All deputy ministers should be in a position to answer for their budgets and what has occurred with their budgets in their areas of budgetary responsibility.
In this specific circumstance, I don't know whether you are talking about budgets that were the deputy minister's responsibility or not, or how moneys flowed. But deputy ministers should be able to tell you about their budgets.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
My understanding, of course, is that the funding for the stimulus package rests with a number of departments. I would expect that in any department the deputy minister would be responsible for the administration of the funding that flows out of their department to the various provinces.
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
I don't really understand enough about how that program is structured and how the money flows.
Liberal
Judy Foote Liberal Random—Burin—St. George's, NL
All right.
I just want to talk briefly about the Immigration and Refugee Board, where you state that you found “preferential treatment in staffing processes for some executive appointments and former Governor-in-Council (GIC) appointees”. What kind of preferential treatment was it?
President, Public Service Commission of Canada
When the auditors went in and looked at the actual processes that were run in that department, there were a number of them where we really couldn't see how the candidates were chosen, how they were assessed, and how they ended up in their jobs.
As the auditors did further work, they concluded from the material they saw in the files that determinations had been made that particular individuals would be the right people for the jobs, and those people had then been moved into the jobs through processes that we felt were flawed. So the conclusion was that preferential treatment had occurred.