Government Operations Committee on July 28th, 2016

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

If you could keep this committee up to date on those costs, I think we'd greatly appreciate it.

[Marie Lemay]

I will, with pleasure.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you.

That completes of the second round. My understanding is that Mr. Gerretsen from the government side has a question.

From the official opposition side, Mr. McCauley, you have two or three questions.

Mr. Weir, I'm not sure whether you have further questions.

I'm trying to get a sense for Madame Lackie and Madame Daviau of when they might be coming forward.

We have a question here that might take a few moments.

Mr. McCauley, do you think you need two or three minutes, or five minutes?

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It depends on the length of the answer.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Sure.

Mr. Weir, are you done?

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

I think so, unless something really compelling comes out of these final questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

All right. Let's see whether we can wrap this up and then go with two last speakers.

Mr. Gerretsen, please.

Oh, I'm sorry. Madam Ratansi?

[Yasmin Ratansi, Liberal, Don Valley East, ON]

Mr. Chair, the witnesses have been here for two and a half hours. I think we should be mindful of that.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

That's another way of saying what I think I just said, but, yes, very much so.

[Some hon. members]

Oh, oh!

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. Gerretsen, please.

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

This is a quick question that relates to the regional offices. One of the main complaints I've received over the last four months is that, with the move away from the regional offices to the centralized location in Miramichi, there no longer is that point of contact. Sometimes—quite often, I think—it was very beneficial. If you worked in corrections and your point of contact was in a region that understood how corrections employees were paid, it was a lot easier to help deal with the issues.

I want to hear from you that, when the rollout of Phoenix is complete and the issues have been resolved and we're moving forward, you are confident and you believe that Phoenix will still be able to deliver the same kind of quality of human-resource interaction with the employees that they were receiving with the regional offices.

[Marie Lemay]

Phoenix is not built the same way. It's very much a self-serve system, and that's the principle behind it, that you do a lot yourself. You have access to things, your manager goes in—it's not the same interaction that you used to have. To say that it will be the same thing I think would be wrong, but—

[Mark Gerretsen, Liberal, Kingston and the Islands, ON]

I'm sorry; I'm not asking whether it's the same thing but whether the employee will have the same access to the same types of resources.

[Marie Lemay]

Yes, they will in Miramichi.

[Rosanna Di Paola]

Yes. The model is different. It used to be that you'd go down the hall to visit your compensation adviser and chat about doing whatever you needed to do, such as going off on leave. That model has shifted to one of self-service and one whereby you put in a request and the pay centre in Miramichi provides you with the service. It's meant to be a lot quicker, a lot more efficient, a lot more consistent. That's the model of a centralized grouping of people.

There are experts on corrections. It's unique in that it has very specific rules, and they've been built into Phoenix as a technology, but the compensation advisers in Miramichi understand those collective agreements very well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Mr. McCauley, please.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

When we discovered the massive backlog, which we're hearing now is the cause of many of the problems in Phoenix with the pay and everything, what actions were taken in April, when it came up? It doesn't sound as though we informed the minister, because she was still advising us in the middle of May that everything was fine, apart from 77 isolated people.

[Marie Lemay]

We have to remember that the backlog.... We talked about two components. We talked about the transactions that were still in the system and not complete and we talked about the extra-duty pay that was forwarded after. But there's also the portion of the learning curve. We knew it would happen: a bit of a slowdown as the system is put in place. On that portion we expected some delay. That's why it took a bit of time to figure out—

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

It sounds like this unknown backlog of 20,000 really threw a wrench into the plans.

[Marie Lemay]

Again, it's a series of things. It's not one issue, and I wish it were just one, but it's a number of things. That's why, at the beginning, we were expecting some slowdown in productivity, and then we were looking at the complaints, and that's why we weren't able to....

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I may have misinterpreted. I thought it was bigger than it's sounding now, but it's just part of the overall problems. Okay.

Quickly, you mentioned that you had a first meeting with PSAC on April 25. I'm sorry, it's a long time ago now, but do you recall what issues were brought forward, because, again, all of us on this committee heard repeatedly that it's only 77, that it's a great program, that everything is good, not to worry, because it's being addressed? Then it blew up in June, and now it's blowing up more and more.

[Marie Lemay]

I can start by saying that the relationship with the unions, for us, is extremely important.

This was day 14 for me, and it was very important to meet with them because I wanted to have a conversation about what they were hearing. What I remember our conversation being was that they raised with me the issue of, could we not go to phase two?

Unfortunately, phase two was already done, but again, we go back to the recommendation. We were already in the system and going to phase two was, I believe, the right decision.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I have just one last quick question after this, but just quickly on this one. Was the government aware of what PSAC was saying, or was it too late anyway and we just had to tackle these issues as they came up?

[Marie Lemay]

Was I aware, sorry?