Government Operations Committee on Oct. 3rd, 2016

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

In five years, it will be even less.

[Craig Dyer]

What the public doesn't know is that there is a route measurement system, which takes into account the volumes decreasing and the parcels increasing.

To say that we deliver mail to every house every day, no. Look at my route in Mount Pearl. I deliver to route number two. I have 1,500 houses that I deliver to. According to the calculations, I should only deliver to 700 a day. Not everybody gets mail every day. Those formulas increase or decrease the staff and allow for growth in one area and a decrease in the other.

One of the issues was that it costs $286 per house per year for door-to-door delivery. I'd love to challenge those numbers. I asked the committee if they had challenged them. My last route, door to door, was only prior to October and it was 600 houses. If you do the math, I should make $171,000. I make $54,000.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

Right—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

[Kelly McCauley, Conservative, Edmonton West, AB]

I understand that, but you just can't use—

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

We're going to have to move on.

Mr. Weir is next, for seven minutes.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Thanks very much for the presentations. Mr. Gosine, I think you made a strong appeal for postal banking. I think you're speaking on behalf of a potential customer base. I'd like to ask Mr. Dyer whether he could address the possibility of postal banking from the point of view of Canada Post employees.

[Craig Dyer]

To my knowledge, in 1968 Canada Post banking stopped in Canada. That was in the main part of Labrador, and it was a service that was provided. As Mr. Gosine said in his opening, it has shown a way to be very profitable. For me, using our network of 6,000 postal outlets across the country provides plenty of opportunities. There is one for postal banking and there are others for providing services and generating revenues.

These revenues have been used in other countries to offset the decline in letter mail and to assist with the service that is being provided. I think it's a great opportunity.

I represent 30 post offices in the Avalon Peninsula. If you go down to Burnt Cove, which is a small community, there is no federal identity there, but at the same time there's a post office. That post office can provide many federal services. It can provide postal banking. It could be a hub for the community. I believe these post offices are underutilized.

If you're going to provide a service, then you can charge a fee. There are opportunities to generate revenue. The studies are out there. I know our national officers presented their position. The biggest question I have is about whether we received the report from Canada Post, the 600-page redacted report. Has the committee seen it, and is it feasible? From Canada Post, my understanding says it's a win-win. If we can generate revenues by providing services to Mr. Gosine's community and use the post office in Bell Island to create jobs, then I think everybody wins, and I think there's an opportunity that we should explore in the future.

For my counterpart from Labrador, their post office is flourishing because of the Internet online services. If you have a community like Labrador, and if they have to rent out more space because of the online world, then why wouldn't we put more services into that post office, generate more revenues for Canada Post, and offset the costs of door-to-door delivery?

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Those are all fantastic points. I'd also like to pick up on a point that Mr. Whelan raised about door-to-door mail delivery. He touched on the fact that the current government had promised to maintain door-to-door delivery during the election campaign. It now seems that there's some doubt about that commitment.

I wonder if you could speak to your understanding of the promise that was made during the election and your expectation of what the federal government should be doing with home mail delivery.

[Craig Dyer]

As a trade unionist and an organization, we approached all levels of the government leading up to the election, and we did make it an election issue. Many parties made serious commitments. My understanding from the Liberals was that they would restore door-to-door delivery and they would do this review.

When I was on Royal Oak Avenue in Kilbride and I got the moratorium on community mailboxes, it was about a week too late. Our hope is to convince the panel and the government that door-to-door delivery is a viable solution.

Here's a quote from the year 2000: Canada Post and CUPW negotiated the removal of community mailboxes to the sum of 150 full-time jobs. In St. John's, Newfoundland, we've removed 111 CMBs, or community mailboxes, and we created one job. Guess what? The letters that were sent out from the corporation from Mr. McNeill, who I think was the delivery service officer out of Halifax, said we were giving you the best service possible, but door-to-door delivery is the best service possible.

I find it hard that the corporation would put out numbers like $268 for door to door versus $127 for mailboxes. That's what people tend to focus on. That's an average. I don't believe doing the math is reflective. I ask the panel, have they asked the corporation to show how on average it's $268 to provide a service to the door?

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Absolutely. Excellent. Good points.

Do you have any thoughts on this, Mr. Gosine?

[Gary Gosine]

I think what Craig is saying is a big thing. When it comes to postal banking in a rural community like mine, there are ways and means for Canada Post to pick up a lot of money if they are suffering. In my community there is no bank. There has been no bank since 2002, and the people could not travel because there was no ferry. There are ways and means of picking up money, that's for sure.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

One of the ideas that has been floated to save money at Canada Post is alternate-day delivery. Would you like to address that proposal?

[Craig Dyer]

I did watch CPAC when Mr. Chopra said that it was not feasible simply because our neighbourhood mail, our parcels, and our mail.... As I said earlier, residents don't receive mail every day. If you're on my route, you receive mail 50% of the time. That could be Monday, Wednesday, Friday. That is formulated and calculated into my daily workload. I have 1,500 houses, but I'm only delivering 700, and that is my eight-hour work day. It has been proven through engineering and a letter carrier route measurement system.

So alternate-day delivery is not an alternative, because if you're expecting a letter from the doctor, you have to wait two days, which means you may have to change the standards under the Canada Post charter. I read that alternate-day delivery was small savings, but I think it would actually hurt the corporation because, if I'm delivering in Mount Pearl today, Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and you expect your mail or your parcel on Tuesday, you have to wait another day. One, you're violating the charter, and two, people will not like your service and they'll go somewhere else.

[Erin Weir, NDP, Regina—Lewvan, SK]

Right. You're already working at full capacity and it's not as though it would be feasible to just do your route every second day or something.

[Craig Dyer]

Well, I'm sure there is a mechanism to make it happen. I'm sure the corporation has thought about it, but what I heard in evidence was Mr. Palecek and Mr. Chopra saying that it was not a viable alternative, and I agree, because of the parcels and the neighbourhood mail. The neighbourhood mail, the direct marketing, is a huge portion of our business, and the customer wants that letter or that flyer for their sale on Saturday, and I can tell you, in St. John's there's a huge focus on those revenue streams.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

Thank you very much.

Gentlemen, if you're not fluently bilingual, I would suggest you put on your translation equipment. I believe Mr. Ayoub will be speaking

in French.

You have seven minutes.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank the both of you for appearing before the committee today. I'm glad to hear what you have to say and to be in Newfoundland and Labrador, a first for me.

It's interesting to note that, in our discussions on Canada Post over the past few days, we've heard facts and statements that are sometimes different and sometimes the same.

Today, I listened to you talk about routes, letter carriers, and mandatory overtime. That gives me an opening to discuss something I was wondering about.

If I understand correctly, the problem you're experiencing is local in nature. It may be a problem specific to St. John's, where considerable overtime is necessary.

In other places, I've heard about letter carriers who are paid their eight hours a day regardless and who, if they finish their route in less than eight hours, can help out with the mail on another route. It's not overtime, technically speaking, but they are paid overtime within their eight-hour shift. Obviously, if they work more than eight hours, then, they are doing real overtime, in my view.

Is that possible? Am I wrong about that?

[Craig Dyer]

No, you're absolutely correct.

Prior to 2011, the day was evaluated at eight hours, 400 minutes, and the volume fluctuates from day to day to day. What was happening after the last two restructures was they made the routes that tight, or they made the routes well over eight hours a day. That is not happening, but there was a time when, if the flight never showed up or the trailer never showed up, you might get your work done in six hours and there might be a portion of another route available, and article 17.04 says you could bid to work on that route and get paid at premium rates.

That is factual, but that's not what it is today. Today many workers, with the reduction of routes, now are forced to work eight, nine, 10, or 11 hours a day on their own route to get their work done, and I'm an example. I worked last week. Monday I took some time off to go cook for soccer players. I volunteered all year, so I took two hours off, and it cost me my leave. Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday, I worked a combined nine and a half hours overtime on my own route, which was nine and a half hours that I didn't get to see my family. My son was in bed three nights, and I was told to work it or be disciplined. That's wrong. There were people sitting home—

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I see. You already said that. My time is running out, and I have other questions for you.

Canada Post wants to reduce the number of letter carriers by doing away with home mail delivery. How much would Canada Post save if it were to redesign the routes in St. John's and hire additional people to work regular hours, since overtime wouldn't be necessary? Have you calculated that? Do you have that kind of information?

[Craig Dyer]

No. I don't have the calculations on hand, but I have arbitrated forced overtime when the corporation chose to force individuals to work while people sat home not earning any income.

The big thing about overtime for the Canadian Union of Postal Workers is that it's non-pensionable. There is a concern about the pension fund. If they force Craig Dyer to work three hours of overtime, that is non-pensionable, but if they offer it to another worker to give them a job, then they have to pay into the pension.

I don't have any numbers, but I do know that since the postal transformation, there is a staggering amount of overtime work. The corporation nationally does have those hours.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

I'd like to talk about consultation.

At the very beginning of your presentation, you said that none had taken place.

[The Chair, Conservative, Tom Lukiwski]

There was no translation there for a moment.

Please start over, Ramez, if you wouldn't mind.

[Ramez Ayoub, Liberal, Thérèse-De Blainville, QC]

Right at the beginning of your presentation, you mentioned that little or no consultation had taken place. I can assure you that our committee's objective is to consult people. We are non-partisan, and we don't represent Canada Post. That's very important to understand. I don't represent Canada Post. I don't think anyone at the table has preconceived ideas about Canada Post. We are here to listen to what you have to say.

The only people we represent are Canadians. Like Mr. Gosine, I used to be a mayor, so I represented citizens at the municipal level. Now, we simply represent citizens from numerous municipalities. We just represent more people.

As far as the lack of consultation goes, this is what I took away. There appears to be considerable mistrust when it comes to the figures and the way things are done, specifically, the way new letter carrier routes are put in place or eliminated. There's even mistrust of the figures in the reports produced by Canada Post or independent firms.

Do you still have any trust in Canada Post's senior management? Is there enough trust to keep the talks going? Further talks on the future of Canada Post are going to take place. Do you trust them?

[Craig Dyer]

From my 27 years' experience, I do not trust them. I have engaged in many consultations concerning issues in our plant and have come forward with ideas to save money, to make things better, to better accommodate the corporation and their goals, only to be told no.

As I said, last week I attended a consultation on 11 routes. It was already predetermined what was going to happen. To the input from me or the people I represent, who were sitting at the table, we were told, “No, we can probably fix it later”, so there is a trust factor there.

What we do in St. John's is try to consult. We try to bring issues to the forefront before going to arbitration. There is a complaint stage in our collective agreement. We try very hard to resolve issues. If you look at our record, St. John's, Newfoundland, is probably one of the highest per capita for grievances filed, and it should never be. We understand the corporation. We understand that they need to be self-sustainable. We are not out to create jobs that are not productive. We are out to serve our community. That's why we find it so difficult to have trust in our management, because it starts from the top down.

I found out about the five-point plan when I was delivering mail on Duckworth Street. I was walking into the Fraize law office when several media people called me and told me that the corporation was implementing this five-point plan. Nobody—local, regional, or national—had the courtesy to contact me or anybody in my position to make us aware. They just put it out into the media and blindsided us.